>Then perhaps you need to take it from those that do.  There are ranches
>that are far far worse than Marshall Farms.  There are some that actually
>deserve the term ferret mill.
>
>Learn about the other ranches and even more the mills.  You are not doing
>ferrets a service by effectively aiding the mills by attacking their
>competition.
 
I am happy to learn from other people's experiences and listen to those
who have information.  Unfortunately you didn't provide anything solid
for my consideration or anyone else's.  Your post yesterday accuses me of
making uninformed judgements, yet ironically you are then demanding that I
take everything you say, without any specific details, as fact.  "Take it
from those who do" is a statement that needs to be backed up if you want
me to change my opinion based on what you've seen and learned.  Who are
the ranches?  What makes them mills?  What did you see there that confirms
your claims?  Where are they and how do I educate myself about them?
You've been asked these questions before and you've sidestepped it and
ignored the request for information.  If you're going to demand that we
look into this before forming an opinion, why do you clam up when asked
for any actual information?
 
I fully believe that there are places with less money and smaller
facilities who recklessly and irresponsibly breed ferrets.  I do not even
know who or where they are, and I said as much in my posts.  Rather than
educate me, you simply taunted me for admitting that I do not know who or
where they are.
 
>We as a community should start with the worst or at least work on all
>ranches equitably instead of being intellectually lazy and trust the word
>of sources that are criminal in nature instead of searching for credible
>sources.
 
I agree completely.  And if you want to see us as a community focus on the
worst, or work on all ranches together, I ask you again to tell the ferret
community who and where they are so that we may get to work making the
world a better place to be born as a ferret.  It's not fair to label
others as "intellectually lazy" when you claim to have the information,
you instruct me to get the information before you will respect my opinion,
but you refuse to share anything you know.  That's not how a community
works.
 
>There is a concept of relative evil that you really need to learn to be
>content in this world in which there are millions of shades of grey and
>almost nothing that is clearly an issue in just black and white.
 
But you criticized me for seeing animal rights activists in shades of gray
rather than black and white and called me a supporter of terrorism because
of it!  My personal take on groups like the ALF and their activities that
liberated ferrets, for good or bad, is indeed in shades of gray, as having
both positive and negative aspects, both evil and good consequences.  I
too believe that our world is mostly shades of gray, which is why I'm
unable to take a position one way or another on some aspects of animal
rights issues due to the combination of both good intentions yet often
evil outcomes.  I don't think I deserved to be associated with terrorism
simply because I don't have a black and white view on this issue.
 
And in terms of MF in general, it just bothers me that ferret-loving
people defend them because they're the lesser of a collection of evils.  I
don't happen to feel that that is a valid defense and I think the ferrets
deserve more from us in all honesty.  I'm sorry if you were offended by
my analogy (Klan vs. Aryan Nations) but to me that's how it feels - it's
that bad in my eyes.  You don't have to agree with me but your
disagreement does not negate or cancel out my opinion.
 
>Your naive parroting of the worst of Animal Rights rhetoric shows to many
>of us that you have not actually researched the topic through non biased
>resources.
 
Actually, I have researched (both in the library and online) various
exposes of animal abuse at testing facilities.  I've seen pictures of the
animals, read the journals of people who worked there undercover, read
countless newspaper and magazine articles about the issue (many online
but also on file in our university libraries) and watched documentaries on
the subject.  I've invested a lot of time and effort in "ferreting" out
information - and in fact I do NOT like to read and learn only one side of
an issue!  I've read and digested press releases by the labs as well as
the content of their websites which offers factual evidence to support
animal testing and denounces animal rights groups, and I have considered
this viewpoint.  I've come to my conclusions through research, evaluating
both sides of an argument, and some soul-searching.  In some cases I think
the benefits of testing do outweigh what happens to the animals, which
knocks me out of the good graces of ANY animal rights group!
 
And not to be antagonistic, but who is "many of us"?  You are the only one
posting and accusing me of not researching and learning.  Maybe you ought
to just post your own take on me, and not insinuate that there is a
nameless, faceless legion who also found me to be an idiot.  If they're
out there, and offended, I'm sure they'll speak up.
 
>You are assuming that Huntingdon is evil "with facts not in evidence".
 
I base my opinion of them on research.  Facts, documentaries, and exposes
abound regarding Huntingdon.  There are websites that contain the
extensive diaries of an undercover person who worked there and witnessed
many instances of abuse.  Hidden camera investigations have documented a
world of cruelty and abuse.  I pay attention to information, facts,
photos, and documented sources and I seek them out when I want to know
something.
 
It was my love of ferrets that catapulted me into really thinking about
the way animals are regarded by my fellow humans and I didn't always like
what I saw.  My distaste for MF grew based on what I see around me: that
in shelters we see them falling victim to disease and cancers younger and
younger every year.  Each generation we've cared for has a lower life
expectancy than the one before it.  This has distressed me.  I want to see
ferrets from MF live to see the 8-10 years of life they deserve, not 5
years where the last 1-2 years are spent pumped full of medication.  Our
vets see almost exclusively MF ferrets unless another kind somehow finds
its way into the area, and the decline in the MF ferrets' life expectancy
has led some of our vets to start calling them "geriatric" at 4-5 years
old and no longer good candidates for surgery.
 
My distaste with MF grew from working with a shelter, meeting other
shelter directors and hearing about their fruitless attempts to contact MF
for help and answers, as well as their record number of MF ferrets dying
at such early ages.  MF never gave a penny or any assistance to any of
the 9 shelters I've known despite repeated attempts to contact them and
explain that Massachusetts shelters are full of their ferrets.  Other
people have posted and said that MF does a lot for ferrets and shelters.
It's great if that's true, but if they have some kind of program that
helps shelters, it has failed to extend to New England ferret rescues
despite our attempts to let them know we're here.
 
By YOUR OWN reasoning, I would be remiss to accept what you say as
indisputable truth, because you don't offer me any facts, any stories, any
specifics.  With regard to the health and longevity of MF ferrets, your
declarations go against what I have seen for myself.  You've taken me to
task because you think that I am naively, mindlessly believing everything
I see or hear about animal rights, and publicly decrying me as someone who
does no research and explores no alternative opinions.  But you also
demand that I change my views based on information you won't share or
quantify.  I am confused!!
 
Footnote to BIG and all FMLers: I do not want to be the instigator of
another battle here on the FML that will take space away from ferret
issues and get antagonistic and hurt people's feelings, nor do I intend
to continue with the animal-rights issue.  It was not my initial intent
to create such an issue and I apologize.  I will not post again regarding
HLS, as there is not a direct connection with ferrets, and to anyone who
was offended I do apologize for bringing it into discussion if you feel it
doesn't belong here.  So if there is anyone else who disagrees with me and
would like to engage in a friendly debate (please no hate e-mails, civil
messages will get an equally friendly response), please contact me
privately.
 
Thanks,
Heather
[Posted in FML issue 3659]