>Then perhaps you need to take it from those that do. There are ranches >that are far far worse than Marshall Farms. There are some that actually >deserve the term ferret mill. > >Learn about the other ranches and even more the mills. You are not doing >ferrets a service by effectively aiding the mills by attacking their >competition. I am happy to learn from other people's experiences and listen to those who have information. Unfortunately you didn't provide anything solid for my consideration or anyone else's. Your post yesterday accuses me of making uninformed judgements, yet ironically you are then demanding that I take everything you say, without any specific details, as fact. "Take it from those who do" is a statement that needs to be backed up if you want me to change my opinion based on what you've seen and learned. Who are the ranches? What makes them mills? What did you see there that confirms your claims? Where are they and how do I educate myself about them? You've been asked these questions before and you've sidestepped it and ignored the request for information. If you're going to demand that we look into this before forming an opinion, why do you clam up when asked for any actual information? I fully believe that there are places with less money and smaller facilities who recklessly and irresponsibly breed ferrets. I do not even know who or where they are, and I said as much in my posts. Rather than educate me, you simply taunted me for admitting that I do not know who or where they are. >We as a community should start with the worst or at least work on all >ranches equitably instead of being intellectually lazy and trust the word >of sources that are criminal in nature instead of searching for credible >sources. I agree completely. And if you want to see us as a community focus on the worst, or work on all ranches together, I ask you again to tell the ferret community who and where they are so that we may get to work making the world a better place to be born as a ferret. It's not fair to label others as "intellectually lazy" when you claim to have the information, you instruct me to get the information before you will respect my opinion, but you refuse to share anything you know. That's not how a community works. >There is a concept of relative evil that you really need to learn to be >content in this world in which there are millions of shades of grey and >almost nothing that is clearly an issue in just black and white. But you criticized me for seeing animal rights activists in shades of gray rather than black and white and called me a supporter of terrorism because of it! My personal take on groups like the ALF and their activities that liberated ferrets, for good or bad, is indeed in shades of gray, as having both positive and negative aspects, both evil and good consequences. I too believe that our world is mostly shades of gray, which is why I'm unable to take a position one way or another on some aspects of animal rights issues due to the combination of both good intentions yet often evil outcomes. I don't think I deserved to be associated with terrorism simply because I don't have a black and white view on this issue. And in terms of MF in general, it just bothers me that ferret-loving people defend them because they're the lesser of a collection of evils. I don't happen to feel that that is a valid defense and I think the ferrets deserve more from us in all honesty. I'm sorry if you were offended by my analogy (Klan vs. Aryan Nations) but to me that's how it feels - it's that bad in my eyes. You don't have to agree with me but your disagreement does not negate or cancel out my opinion. >Your naive parroting of the worst of Animal Rights rhetoric shows to many >of us that you have not actually researched the topic through non biased >resources. Actually, I have researched (both in the library and online) various exposes of animal abuse at testing facilities. I've seen pictures of the animals, read the journals of people who worked there undercover, read countless newspaper and magazine articles about the issue (many online but also on file in our university libraries) and watched documentaries on the subject. I've invested a lot of time and effort in "ferreting" out information - and in fact I do NOT like to read and learn only one side of an issue! I've read and digested press releases by the labs as well as the content of their websites which offers factual evidence to support animal testing and denounces animal rights groups, and I have considered this viewpoint. I've come to my conclusions through research, evaluating both sides of an argument, and some soul-searching. In some cases I think the benefits of testing do outweigh what happens to the animals, which knocks me out of the good graces of ANY animal rights group! And not to be antagonistic, but who is "many of us"? You are the only one posting and accusing me of not researching and learning. Maybe you ought to just post your own take on me, and not insinuate that there is a nameless, faceless legion who also found me to be an idiot. If they're out there, and offended, I'm sure they'll speak up. >You are assuming that Huntingdon is evil "with facts not in evidence". I base my opinion of them on research. Facts, documentaries, and exposes abound regarding Huntingdon. There are websites that contain the extensive diaries of an undercover person who worked there and witnessed many instances of abuse. Hidden camera investigations have documented a world of cruelty and abuse. I pay attention to information, facts, photos, and documented sources and I seek them out when I want to know something. It was my love of ferrets that catapulted me into really thinking about the way animals are regarded by my fellow humans and I didn't always like what I saw. My distaste for MF grew based on what I see around me: that in shelters we see them falling victim to disease and cancers younger and younger every year. Each generation we've cared for has a lower life expectancy than the one before it. This has distressed me. I want to see ferrets from MF live to see the 8-10 years of life they deserve, not 5 years where the last 1-2 years are spent pumped full of medication. Our vets see almost exclusively MF ferrets unless another kind somehow finds its way into the area, and the decline in the MF ferrets' life expectancy has led some of our vets to start calling them "geriatric" at 4-5 years old and no longer good candidates for surgery. My distaste with MF grew from working with a shelter, meeting other shelter directors and hearing about their fruitless attempts to contact MF for help and answers, as well as their record number of MF ferrets dying at such early ages. MF never gave a penny or any assistance to any of the 9 shelters I've known despite repeated attempts to contact them and explain that Massachusetts shelters are full of their ferrets. Other people have posted and said that MF does a lot for ferrets and shelters. It's great if that's true, but if they have some kind of program that helps shelters, it has failed to extend to New England ferret rescues despite our attempts to let them know we're here. By YOUR OWN reasoning, I would be remiss to accept what you say as indisputable truth, because you don't offer me any facts, any stories, any specifics. With regard to the health and longevity of MF ferrets, your declarations go against what I have seen for myself. You've taken me to task because you think that I am naively, mindlessly believing everything I see or hear about animal rights, and publicly decrying me as someone who does no research and explores no alternative opinions. But you also demand that I change my views based on information you won't share or quantify. I am confused!! Footnote to BIG and all FMLers: I do not want to be the instigator of another battle here on the FML that will take space away from ferret issues and get antagonistic and hurt people's feelings, nor do I intend to continue with the animal-rights issue. It was not my initial intent to create such an issue and I apologize. I will not post again regarding HLS, as there is not a direct connection with ferrets, and to anyone who was offended I do apologize for bringing it into discussion if you feel it doesn't belong here. So if there is anyone else who disagrees with me and would like to engage in a friendly debate (please no hate e-mails, civil messages will get an equally friendly response), please contact me privately. Thanks, Heather [Posted in FML issue 3659]