[Posted in 2 parts -- combined into 1.  BIG]
 
Re: Bob's gravy recipe, and his comments on it yesterday....I posted this
to the FAIML earlier this week.
 ----------
Spent Sunday afternoon discussing nutrition with my Father-in-Law.  Stan
is a scientist, first and foremost; and also a Professor-Emeritus of
Biochemistry, Animal Nutrition and Toxicology.  (His original PhD was in
Biochemistry... the animal nutrition and toxicology were built on that
foundation.  Not just nutrients and poisons but *how* the body processes
them, whether herbivore, omnivore, carnivore, or obligate herbivore or
carnivore.) He s taught for years at the graduate and post-doctoral level,
and his research and discoveries are respected and applied in countries
around the world.  He s been invited for sabbaticals to different countries,
at their expense, to teach their scientists.  His students have gone on to
become Vets, researchers at Eli Lilly, University professors, et.al.....
 
I told him about the discussion concerning diet for ferrets with insulinoma,
specifically dealing with the bone, honey and nutrical in Bob C s gravy
recipe.  I showed him the recipe, and a number of posts people have made
both pro and con about it on the FML and FAIML.
 
Then I said: Ferret - obligate carnivore - no cecum - insulinoma - tumors -
hypoglycemic.  What do you think about the gravy recipe?
 
His reply - It seems reasonable, well researched and thought out.
(reasonable, from Stan, is a compliment....)
 
I asked about the bone shards.  He said that while you couldn t completely
eliminate all risk, pureeing the bones, and then boiling them, pretty much
minimized what risk there was.
 
On the amount of honey added: Minimal, when compared to the other nutrients
in the gravy.  I then had to listen to a lecture on the differences between
sucrose, inverted sucrose, fructose, glucose et al.  <g>..... when I asked
him to translate into layman s terms so I could understand it, he explained
that honey is half water, and honey equals the greatest amount of perceived
sweetness for the least amount of actual sugars [outside of Aspartame...(my
note)]  It wasn t necessary to the recipe, but if the animal needed it in
order to be willing to eat the gravy, the amount of nutrients present in
the other ingredients would more than compensate for the small amount of
sugars present in each serving.
 
On adding an entire tube of NutriCal (I showed him the tube, so he had the
list of ingredients for reference): Cooking destroys several vitamins
present in the original food - including Vitamins A, E, and K.... adding
the NutriCal *after cooking* replaces those.  No, the amount of Vitamin A
isn t excessive, considering the animal s metabolism: the higher on the
food chain an animal is, the greater the ability to appropriately
metabolize it or to flush it out of the system since they are designed to
eat animals that have been storing Vitamin A in their livers.  [The charts
in Fox also suggest that a ferret may have a higher need for Vit. A than
dogs or cats...(my note)]  Also, the NutriCal provides the Omega Fatty
Acids, which are essential to a carnivore, and it s easier to administer
than feeding an occasional fish to the ferret.  On the amount of sugars
present in the NutriCal - not enough per serving to cause problems, when
balanced against the other nutrients.
 
On pureeing everything raw before cooking: Would provide for more
consistent cooking, which would mean less cooking is required in order
to kill pathogens, so fewer nutrients are destroyed by the heat.
 
On trying to avoid feeding sugars to an insulinomic animal:
- Carnivores should be getting 5 - 10% of their calories from glucose.
- 10-20% of the dry weight (all water removed) of the liver (of prey
  animals) is pure glycogen, i.e. stored glucose.
- even very lean muscle tissue contains (on the average) 10% fat, and 5-6%
  glycogen.  (when protein is broken down in the digestive process,
  by-products include nitrogen, which is excreted in the urine, and
  glycogen, which is  stored for use.....)
- approx. 5% dry weight of a body is glycogen
So..... giving a low glucose, or no sugar diet is almost impossible even if
you feed only meat.
 
Other bits:
Nutrients do not work alone - they interact not only with other nutrients,
but also with other substances/chemicals etc.... so what is true under one
circumstance may not be true in another.  I.e. don t extrapolate beyond
the data.  The 1st Principal of Physiology, as expressed by Claude Bernard
in the 1700 s, is Wo sind die Data?  (where are the data?)
 
We test the blood, not because it s the best way to find out what s going
on in a body, but because it s just about the easiest way to gather
information.  But the data gathered from the blood is only worth the amount
of knowledge and research behind it, to find out how it relates to the
metabolism as a whole, to be able to interpret it accurately.
 
 Prarie dogs (eaten by black-footed ferrets) are NOT almost pure protein....
remove the water, and you still have lipids (fats), bone, which is made of
calcium and other minerals, DNA, RNA, glycogen (sugars).... i.e. a variety
of nutrients which should all be in a carnivore s diet.
 
"Grain (i.e. corn and rice) is very high in carbohydrates, compared to
other plant matter."
 
It s not protein that matters... it s the availability of the nutrients in
the protein.  All the nutrients in the world won t matter if the metabolism
can t access them.
 
Experience teaches us WHAT works, but doesn t teach us the biochemical
reasons WHY it works.  It takes a lot of research to find the why s.
Unless you know better, you can t argue with success.
 
Again on Bob s gravy recipe:
The processed bran/whole oats/metamucil would take the place of the
contents of a herbivore prey animal s stomach, which is already partly
processed by the herbivore s stomach acids, and thus more available for
the carnivore to use.  Even if a carnivore is incapable of digesting plant
matter completely, some of the carbohydrates will still be released into
the carnivore s metabolism.
 
Carbohydrates and starch become sugars when processed in the body.... why
question a small amount of added sugars in this recipe, which is almost
all from animal sources, when one is feeding a kibble which contains a
significant amount of processed grain?
 
-----
(I hope y'all find this as interesting as I did... I learned a few things.
<g>)
 
Carla Smith  <><
WhyNot? Ferrets
http://www.whynotferrets.com
ICQ:  29478475
member, Rio Grande Domestic Ferret Club, El Paso, TX
"Every pet deserves to be loved, and to have someone cry over them when
they're gone."
[Posted in FML issue 2627]