>It is true that small amount of grains in a food may not pose a
>problem. But, because meat products are usually weighed wet, and
>grains dry, even if grains are the third ingredient in the list, by
>volume they may comprise 50% of the ingredients. And, because by
>volume grains have about the same amount of protein as meat, the
>protein may be coming as much from grains as from the meat.
To form the struvite stones the urine pH has to be made too alkaline.
Try using urine pH strips as we do on fresh ferret urine that is clean
(and the strips are very affordable when you get the ones that do not
also look at things like urine glucose levels, urine blood levels,
urine protein levels, etc. though those are also available and can be
useful). I think that you will find like we did that the high quality
commercial foods like TF do not cause urine pH problems. If they do
then you may have an unusual genetic variation present in somebody. We
still have to on and off monitor Mornie for the opposite problem, a
tendency toward cystine uroliths, but she will go from the carcinoma
she has before her kidneys get bad, we suspect. Hilbert did die of
kidney failure just a touch shy of 8 years old (getting 7 extra years
from the protein restriction which is so useful with that medical
condition) but that was not solely because of earlier damage from the
cystine stones to which he was prone; he had two other assaults on his
kidneys in the last year -- a very bad GI virus that had him on IV for
a good while (with him being the first in our family to get that bad
one so Steve found him collapsed and dehydrated one morning as the
first clue that bug was in our family) and he also had a bad bout of
diabetes after insulinoma surgery, having developed insulinoma at the
age of 7 years old)
A great many ferrets have lived as great many years on quality kibbles.
Heck, 20 years ago and 30 years ago a decent number of ferrets lived a
great many years on lousy kibbles, though back then there were also
fewer with the genetic burdens that some fancies appear to have.
When kidney disease is ***already present*** the vets of the FHL tend
to recommend reducing phosphorus in the diet. I don't know IF or how
the amounts of that differ between protein sources.
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/SG15335
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/SG11376
etc
and for phosphorus levels the grains are higher than poultry or eggs
and I lack time to check others:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000121000000000000000.html
The seven highest grains:
1. Rice bran, crude Phosphorus: 1062mg,
2. Wheat bran, crude Phosphorus: 938mg,
3. Oat bran, raw Phosphorus: 597mg,
4. Oat bran, cooked Phosphorus: 595mg,
5. Cornmeal, self- rising, bolted, plain, enriched, white
Phosphorus: 481mg,
6. Cornmeal, self-rising, bolted, plain, enriched, yellow
Phosphorus: 481mg,
7. Wheat germ, crude Phosphorus: 468mg
Egg is much lower which is a GOOD THING for anyone with a ferret who
has kidney disease to remember since cooked egg can be given to them as
a food, a concept to which you introduced me several years ago, Danee.
The seven highest poultry sources are higher than egg is:
1. Chicken, liver, all classes, cooked, pan-fried Phosphorus: 514mg,
2. Chicken, liver, all classes, raw Phosphorus: 512mg,
3. USDA Commodity, turkey ham, dark meat, smoked, frozen
Phosphorus: 490mg,
4. Chicken, liver, all classes, cooked, simmered Phosphorus: 485mg
5. Emu, fan fillet, raw Phosphorus: 458mg,
6. Quail, meat only, raw Phosphorus: 458mg,
7. Emu, flat fillet, raw Phosphorus: 449mg,
People can look up the other categories on their own
So, some grains and poultry wind up having similar phosphorus levels
but those bran types above have high levels, fine for a healthy
individual but the needs change if significant kidney disease is
present.
>Some people worry about protein levels being too high, and actually
>contributing to kidney failure. But, in cats they have found it is not
>the protein level, but the source of proteins that is the problem. Cat
>foods that contain a large percentage of plant protein are far more
>likely to cause renal problems
Okay, you are getting into areas in which I haven't read, but note that
your wording sounds like you are speaking about hypotheses with ferrets
so they may pan out or may not. Still, it is fine for people to adjust
their behavior according to hypotheses that they respect. It's just
best to be clear that those are hypotheses rather than well documented
and thoroughly studied. I think we all do some things based upon
hypotheses alone, me included.
The grains and allergies in ferrets part is also hypothetical. Yes, I
know some people who have had ferrets allergic or intolerant to one or
another specific grain, but also I know others who have had ferrets who
were either allergic to or had a food intolerance for one or another
(or more than one) animal based protein sources. Our Scooter had
serious problems with all poultry, very badly so, and we did
elimination challenges to narrow it down so it he got ONLY certain
specific protein sources each time: chicken alone, turkey alone, duck
alone, etc. (That is also how food allergies are narrowed down in
people.) With ferrets who get IBD is it not always clear if the problem
involved is actually an allergy or a food intolerance of some type, so
generalizing from human allergens may not be applicable. Allergies,
BTW, tend to form to protein compounds to which individuals have the
most exposures and that is the explanation for grains being common
allergens in humans, with the grain type dependent on the diet of the
individual (for example, rice is more common allergen than wheat in
southern China but in northern China where more wheat is eaten it is
the more more common allergen of the two). Some foods are more likely
to be become allergens in humans, for example, crustaceans, but a
number depend on what the person eats a lot, with susceptible people
usually getting allergies to their common foods or favorite foods.
With cats isn't the problem the same urine pH one as ferrets, in that
if the food has a very large amount of grain, especially the specific
types of grains that are most prone to altering urine pH like yellow
corn/maize meal (which I don't think are even in the better ferret
kibbles), then their urine becomes too alkaline? If so, then that is
answered by the information on urine pH in my last post.
When there is an existing problem with cystine uroliths then those
specific ferrets DO need their protein levels reduced. That is because
there are FOUR amino acids that have to be reduced in those ferrets,
the group called the "cola group" for their initials: Cystine,
Ornithine, Lysine, and Arginine. Any of these in high enough amounts
can cause cystine to precipitate out in ferrets who are prone to
cystine uroliths. The easiest way to reduce that burden for those
individuals who have this genetic susceptibility is to just reduce
protein levels over all.
In ferrets who have other existing kidney disease that approach is
possible, but going to protein sources with lower phosphorous levels
(cooked eggs for a chunk of the protein, for example) is probably
better. Cooked eggs do not pose the THREE most common ferret medical
risks that raw eggs can pose. (now I will use part of past post of
mine)
If the eggs are raw infection risk goes up. Ironically, one of the ways
to deal with one type of infection (salmonella) involves a cleaning
process which strips the outer layer of the shell away, making it more
permeable to other infections -- which is why when i was a kid we'd
just leave the eggs we gathered out on the counter and eat them within
a day or two, but grocery eggs must be refrigerated.
There are also two types of dietary nutritional disorders which can be
caused by raw eggs: biotin and thiamine problems. From
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/FHL2472
in which I garnered info from perhaps the most detailed of ferret vet
texts on nutritional things:
BEGIN QUOTED PAST POST FROM 9/10/07
According to _Biology and Diseases of the Ferret, 2nd edition_ raw eggs
have caused not only salmonella risks and Biotin deficiency in ferrets,
but also can cause Thiamine deficiency. See page 168. Symptoms vary
from lethargy and anorexia to worse symptoms with advances cases, even
convulsions.
A more common cause of Thiamine deficiency in ferrets has been diets
high in fish species that contain high levels of Thiaminase.
Some info on biotin (which already came up in discussion) and raw eggs
since the question came up whether raw worsens the Biotin deficiency
risk (answer is yes):
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=71
BEGIN QUOTE
...Biotin is an important B-complex vitamin that's found in both
the whites and the yolks of raw eggs. Not all of this biotin is
availability to our body when a raw egg is eaten, however, because
there is another substance found in raw egg whites - called avidin -
that binds together with biotin and prevents it from being absorbed
from our digestive tracts. The best way to prevent this lowering of
biotin availability is to cook the egg whites. The cooking of an egg
will destroy the binding power of avidin so that the biotin in the
egg will become much more available...
END QUOTE
http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/bronline/en_US/jsp/BO_Page.jsp?pageID=RLDP&articleID=114
[Link doesn't work for me. BIG]
BEGIN QUOTE
...Because raw egg white contains the biotin-binding protein avidin,
feeding large amounts of raw eggs to dogs has the potential to cause
a biotin deficiency. Although uncommon, this could pose a problem for
owners who insist on supplementing their pet's daily diet with raw
eggs. Signs of biotin deficiency include scabby skin lesions, hair
loss, and pruritus. Depigmentation and dulling of coat color has also
been seen in biotin-deficient mink and foxes.
END QUOTE
There is existing work that indicates that slurry foods are related to
a higher rate of dental plaque. Could you name some actual veterinary
or dental journal studies showing otherwise, please? and now I suspect
that even without my sig lines I may have written almost enough for
length rejection, so I will "Shhhhhhhhhh..." :-)
[Posted in FML 6840]
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