>It is true that small amount of grains in a food may not pose a >problem. But, because meat products are usually weighed wet, and >grains dry, even if grains are the third ingredient in the list, by >volume they may comprise 50% of the ingredients. And, because by >volume grains have about the same amount of protein as meat, the >protein may be coming as much from grains as from the meat. To form the struvite stones the urine pH has to be made too alkaline. Try using urine pH strips as we do on fresh ferret urine that is clean (and the strips are very affordable when you get the ones that do not also look at things like urine glucose levels, urine blood levels, urine protein levels, etc. though those are also available and can be useful). I think that you will find like we did that the high quality commercial foods like TF do not cause urine pH problems. If they do then you may have an unusual genetic variation present in somebody. We still have to on and off monitor Mornie for the opposite problem, a tendency toward cystine uroliths, but she will go from the carcinoma she has before her kidneys get bad, we suspect. Hilbert did die of kidney failure just a touch shy of 8 years old (getting 7 extra years from the protein restriction which is so useful with that medical condition) but that was not solely because of earlier damage from the cystine stones to which he was prone; he had two other assaults on his kidneys in the last year -- a very bad GI virus that had him on IV for a good while (with him being the first in our family to get that bad one so Steve found him collapsed and dehydrated one morning as the first clue that bug was in our family) and he also had a bad bout of diabetes after insulinoma surgery, having developed insulinoma at the age of 7 years old) A great many ferrets have lived as great many years on quality kibbles. Heck, 20 years ago and 30 years ago a decent number of ferrets lived a great many years on lousy kibbles, though back then there were also fewer with the genetic burdens that some fancies appear to have. When kidney disease is ***already present*** the vets of the FHL tend to recommend reducing phosphorus in the diet. I don't know IF or how the amounts of that differ between protein sources. http://ferrethealth.org/archive/SG15335 http://ferrethealth.org/archive/SG11376 etc and for phosphorus levels the grains are higher than poultry or eggs and I lack time to check others: http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000121000000000000000.html The seven highest grains: 1. Rice bran, crude Phosphorus: 1062mg, 2. Wheat bran, crude Phosphorus: 938mg, 3. Oat bran, raw Phosphorus: 597mg, 4. Oat bran, cooked Phosphorus: 595mg, 5. Cornmeal, self- rising, bolted, plain, enriched, white Phosphorus: 481mg, 6. Cornmeal, self-rising, bolted, plain, enriched, yellow Phosphorus: 481mg, 7. Wheat germ, crude Phosphorus: 468mg Egg is much lower which is a GOOD THING for anyone with a ferret who has kidney disease to remember since cooked egg can be given to them as a food, a concept to which you introduced me several years ago, Danee. The seven highest poultry sources are higher than egg is: 1. Chicken, liver, all classes, cooked, pan-fried Phosphorus: 514mg, 2. Chicken, liver, all classes, raw Phosphorus: 512mg, 3. USDA Commodity, turkey ham, dark meat, smoked, frozen Phosphorus: 490mg, 4. Chicken, liver, all classes, cooked, simmered Phosphorus: 485mg 5. Emu, fan fillet, raw Phosphorus: 458mg, 6. Quail, meat only, raw Phosphorus: 458mg, 7. Emu, flat fillet, raw Phosphorus: 449mg, People can look up the other categories on their own So, some grains and poultry wind up having similar phosphorus levels but those bran types above have high levels, fine for a healthy individual but the needs change if significant kidney disease is present. >Some people worry about protein levels being too high, and actually >contributing to kidney failure. But, in cats they have found it is not >the protein level, but the source of proteins that is the problem. Cat >foods that contain a large percentage of plant protein are far more >likely to cause renal problems Okay, you are getting into areas in which I haven't read, but note that your wording sounds like you are speaking about hypotheses with ferrets so they may pan out or may not. Still, it is fine for people to adjust their behavior according to hypotheses that they respect. It's just best to be clear that those are hypotheses rather than well documented and thoroughly studied. I think we all do some things based upon hypotheses alone, me included. The grains and allergies in ferrets part is also hypothetical. Yes, I know some people who have had ferrets allergic or intolerant to one or another specific grain, but also I know others who have had ferrets who were either allergic to or had a food intolerance for one or another (or more than one) animal based protein sources. Our Scooter had serious problems with all poultry, very badly so, and we did elimination challenges to narrow it down so it he got ONLY certain specific protein sources each time: chicken alone, turkey alone, duck alone, etc. (That is also how food allergies are narrowed down in people.) With ferrets who get IBD is it not always clear if the problem involved is actually an allergy or a food intolerance of some type, so generalizing from human allergens may not be applicable. Allergies, BTW, tend to form to protein compounds to which individuals have the most exposures and that is the explanation for grains being common allergens in humans, with the grain type dependent on the diet of the individual (for example, rice is more common allergen than wheat in southern China but in northern China where more wheat is eaten it is the more more common allergen of the two). Some foods are more likely to be become allergens in humans, for example, crustaceans, but a number depend on what the person eats a lot, with susceptible people usually getting allergies to their common foods or favorite foods. With cats isn't the problem the same urine pH one as ferrets, in that if the food has a very large amount of grain, especially the specific types of grains that are most prone to altering urine pH like yellow corn/maize meal (which I don't think are even in the better ferret kibbles), then their urine becomes too alkaline? If so, then that is answered by the information on urine pH in my last post. When there is an existing problem with cystine uroliths then those specific ferrets DO need their protein levels reduced. That is because there are FOUR amino acids that have to be reduced in those ferrets, the group called the "cola group" for their initials: Cystine, Ornithine, Lysine, and Arginine. Any of these in high enough amounts can cause cystine to precipitate out in ferrets who are prone to cystine uroliths. The easiest way to reduce that burden for those individuals who have this genetic susceptibility is to just reduce protein levels over all. In ferrets who have other existing kidney disease that approach is possible, but going to protein sources with lower phosphorous levels (cooked eggs for a chunk of the protein, for example) is probably better. Cooked eggs do not pose the THREE most common ferret medical risks that raw eggs can pose. (now I will use part of past post of mine) If the eggs are raw infection risk goes up. Ironically, one of the ways to deal with one type of infection (salmonella) involves a cleaning process which strips the outer layer of the shell away, making it more permeable to other infections -- which is why when i was a kid we'd just leave the eggs we gathered out on the counter and eat them within a day or two, but grocery eggs must be refrigerated. There are also two types of dietary nutritional disorders which can be caused by raw eggs: biotin and thiamine problems. From http://ferrethealth.org/archive/FHL2472 in which I garnered info from perhaps the most detailed of ferret vet texts on nutritional things: BEGIN QUOTED PAST POST FROM 9/10/07 According to _Biology and Diseases of the Ferret, 2nd edition_ raw eggs have caused not only salmonella risks and Biotin deficiency in ferrets, but also can cause Thiamine deficiency. See page 168. Symptoms vary from lethargy and anorexia to worse symptoms with advances cases, even convulsions. A more common cause of Thiamine deficiency in ferrets has been diets high in fish species that contain high levels of Thiaminase. Some info on biotin (which already came up in discussion) and raw eggs since the question came up whether raw worsens the Biotin deficiency risk (answer is yes): http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=dailytip&dbid=71 BEGIN QUOTE ...Biotin is an important B-complex vitamin that's found in both the whites and the yolks of raw eggs. Not all of this biotin is availability to our body when a raw egg is eaten, however, because there is another substance found in raw egg whites - called avidin - that binds together with biotin and prevents it from being absorbed from our digestive tracts. The best way to prevent this lowering of biotin availability is to cook the egg whites. The cooking of an egg will destroy the binding power of avidin so that the biotin in the egg will become much more available... END QUOTE http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/bronline/en_US/jsp/BO_Page.jsp?pageID=RLDP&articleID=114 [Link doesn't work for me. BIG] BEGIN QUOTE ...Because raw egg white contains the biotin-binding protein avidin, feeding large amounts of raw eggs to dogs has the potential to cause a biotin deficiency. Although uncommon, this could pose a problem for owners who insist on supplementing their pet's daily diet with raw eggs. Signs of biotin deficiency include scabby skin lesions, hair loss, and pruritus. Depigmentation and dulling of coat color has also been seen in biotin-deficient mink and foxes. END QUOTE There is existing work that indicates that slurry foods are related to a higher rate of dental plaque. Could you name some actual veterinary or dental journal studies showing otherwise, please? and now I suspect that even without my sig lines I may have written almost enough for length rejection, so I will "Shhhhhhhhhh..." :-) [Posted in FML 6840]