[Posted in 2 parts... combined into one. BIG]
 
Bob wrote:
>Ed, it is not a good idea to take in dead ferrets, especially 50-60 of
>them, and I wouldn't recommend ANYONE donate them.
 
I second that.  As some of you know I was involved in the creation and
building of a several thousand piece teaching collection at Stony Brook
(Anatomy Dept.) two decades ago so I also have some (5 yrs) experience in
handling large numbers of dead critters and the problems involved, as well
as processing them carefully enough for them to be of any value in
research.  It's NOT work for someone who is untrained in the procedures
and there are actual dangers involved.
 
>There are a variety of reasons for this recommendation and any one
>would negate >the study you are attempting to do, rendering your results
>absolutely useless....
>risk your own ferrets, or even to other people who might visit your place
>because of the possibility of diesease introduction.
 
Boy, are those ever true!!!!!!
 
The chances that Ed would risk his own ferrets is very large, and ferrets
and human share some illnesses and parasites, which also might wind up
shared.  One of the risks of working with carcasses is that sometimes those
exposed (even over a long distance or time frame for some illnesses) wind
up with sicknesses, sometimes of unknown cause.  It's hard on the body at
times when young; in one's 70s it's sure not something a person would want
to fight, so unfair not only to Ed but to his wife.  Since ferrets are more
closely related to other ferrets, Ed would face the risk of accidentally
introducing things like Aleutian, Canine Distemper, and multiple other
dangers we regularly discuss into his critters.  Take it from someone who
twenty years ago had to have all sort of preventive shots and still got a
mystery illness which left permanent damage, had three months of terrible
runs from another, had the worst case of one type of parasite that the
physicians attending had seen, and had to even be checked for a type of
lung parasites at one point along with several other people (Didn't have
them -- whew!).  Dead carcasses and wild animals can pose risks people
don't expect.
 
I sure would NEVER take a ferret from Ed's breeding stock or from his
shelter if he tried this; the risk of expose to serious diseases would be
too great.  Heck, he could even accidentally perpetuate a some new strain
of illness which would otherwise have died out.  It would become a place
to avoid like the plague.
 
>state-by-state and federal requirements for the storage of dead animals,
>their deposition, handling and disposal you would need to meet.
 
****WARNING: if teaching collections or processing bother you do NOT read
any further in this post.  I got a bit graphic about ways Ed could have
problems.  This is a serious topic with dangers involved so I felt it
important. ****
 
And even then things can go wrong.  Imagine what happened when one of our
techs forgot to check a large freezer one day.  Yep.  You've got it, and
no, we didn't just throw the critters' remains out.  They were sorely
needed for a study, so the ENTIRE floor (two wings) of the dept. had to
empty out from the stench (for over a day even with serious venting), and
that tech, his boss, and I wound up working on about 50 rotting animals.
 
Not wanting to encourage Ed I won't say what chemicals were involved, but
three times we had problems with learning students.  One time bones were
chemically burned badly enough to damage critical small features, another
time there was an problem with a naive and defensive student using a
non-working fume hood, yet another time miscarriage (human) was the result
with something else that a student tried.  A person HAS to be a decent
listener when in a learning situation with such things or there can be
terrible results and folks can get tossed from depts.
 
Plus, wrong temp or wrong timing and you've got reduced, altered, or even
shattered teeth.  Ditto wrong chems or wrong concentrations.
 
And then there are the brains -- not always an easy problem to deal with.
 
Then there are the Dermestids (After all this time I forget the spelling.)
Do you have any idea how incredibly careful we had to be with those?  If
they get loose they not only have horrible bites but they will attack
anything with fur, hide, leather, wool, and many other fabrics.  There are
very careful precautions taken with them.  These are one of the scourges of
museums on and off.  HORRIBLE to work with...
 
>If not properly processed, bones can become a health hazard, or worse, the
 
Yes, and they even continue leaking fat for long after the original
processing steps.
 
>processing can actually change the dental morphology. In tooth ageing
>studies, even a fraction of a millimeter can be significant. Certain types
>of processing can cause shrinkage, spalling, cracking, pitting, and even
>exfoliation of the enamel.
 
And can even remove all trace of such very significant features like wear
patterns, small shelves, low cusping, etc.  It can also round features
which aren't, giving a totally different interpretation to the teeth.
It's NOT something which is easy to do if you need a level which will have
ANY value in terms of research.
 
>The method to process these remains must be carefully controlled or the
>data is >absolutely worthless.
 
Yep!
 
>for is a year (plus or minus a year). That MEANS that you STILL have a 3
>year range. 3 YEARS... the best ... "that ferret could be 4, 5 or 6
>years old." ... Most people can GUESS that accurately.
 
Yes, Ed.
 
Plus, you just don't have the background to tell what constitutes
significant features.  Do you think that people like Bob Church just come
in off the streets and then interpret bones and teeth?  It takes years,
and years, and years of serious, more-than-full-time study.
 
Don't you think that having someone think he can come in raw and do that
level of work is more than slightly insulting to people who have put so
long into learning?
 
Only a person who knows NOTHING about a field would ever think he can do
high level work right off the bat without the study needed.
 
If you are interested in the topic, Ed, then pay your dues and STUDY it and
the related topics you'll need like biomechanics, chem, stat and calc, etc.
SERIOUSLY with real texts for a good number of years before even suggesting
that you want to try something like this, and for gosh sake!
 
PLEASE, look into things like the medical, regulatory, and legal
ramifications of taking in bodies FIRST.  Plus, think what this would mean
to people if their adored pets were processed in ways which left their
remains useless and likely even resulted in some being confiscated at some
point by the state and disposed of in a crude manner.  That is just plain
CRUEL!  But if someone without background or the right precautions were
doing this sort of work you can bet that at some point someone would notice
your "report", or an up-date, or be appalled when at your place for another
reason and call in the Board of Health.
 
>4) While ferret dentition studies are lacking, they have been extensively
>done on American mink. I can provide more than a dozen good references
 
Bob, when you get time could you list these for the Geeks?  As someone with
dental and osteological background -- though rusty so I'd need a lot of
re-learning to do what Ed wants to try even though I processed such remains
for about 5 years -- I would love to read these resources.
 
BTW, one of the rules of such studies is that bodies should not be wasted.
The animals lived full lives and then multiple pieces of work were done
with their measurements and soft tissues before they were skeletonized,
after which they became part of a teaching and research collection, except
for the road kill, of course, and even some of that helped teach with soft
tissues first.  This is just plain a good way to respect the animal while
learning things which might help its relatives.  If you want to give to
studies then see if Bob needs the remains, or if you want them to be closer
find out which local universities have mammalian teaching/research
collections.  Bob and other experts know how to handle them properly,
follows careful rules, knows how to interpret them properly, share them
for other studies, etc.  This is a matter of RESPECT for the deceased;
and if you want an idea of how much respect can be given just know that I
carry a card donating my cadaver to any close medical school or museum
which wants it.  The pros treat what remains properly!
 
>5) Ageing techniques which utilize human-interpreted visual discrimination
>criteria are extremely error-prone.
 
Yes, even on human remains, which are by far the most studied.  Another
suggested text: _Reconstruction of Life from the Skeleton_; Iscan and
Kennedy; Alan R. Liss, Inc, NYC.  (publisher).
[Posted in FML issue 2889]