I was planning on leaving the breeding issue alone for a while, until I read what had happened to those poor kits and jill. Really, even basic care would have meant the jill wouldn't have had a problem with mastitis, and the kits would still be able to see today! Daily inspections of the animals are not only advised, but IMO necessary for the good welfare of the animals. I'm not sure if anyone else noticed the dates, but I'm absolutely astonished that when one litter is conceived, another could be conceived such a long time afterwards and the owner not know that the hob is whole. I can understand one litter, or two if it's around the same time, but two litters so far apart in age? Even with two supposedly vasectomised hobs, which they were supposed to be (she wouldn't know unless a case like this happened), once one jill was pregnant, it would surely be obvious that something wasn't right. Anyone passing ferrets on should at the very least vaccinate them, which I noticed wasn't done, and an alter contract or agreement should have been signed so that the ferrets were definitely neutered. Especially since the background of the animals wasn't known, and the genetic defects in the lines are not unknown. I can understand, after having a sudden influx of kits, having to place them. After all, they take up a lot of time and money, kits need a lot of attention and since they're growing they're more expensive to feed than adults. No matter how much they take though, the risk of distemper is too high for just assuming that anyone will vaccinate them. Debbie has already told me that she doesn't want to listen to anyone who doesn't agree with her (she's said that by telling me she refuses to read any posts on the subject by myself and a few other comments) Personally, I do not feel that I've flamed her. Other than my first two posts to the FML (which I also sent to her direct as a courtesy to allow her to respond in the same issue) I have not sent her any emails privately. I have stated my own position in this case, explained why her statement is, in my view, flawed. In attempting to give her another opinion, I have essentially been told that I am ignorant, selfish, and that I don't do anything to help ferrets, in fact she gives the impression that I actually make things *worse* for ferrets because I breed. The only posts on Debbie's side of the issue that I've seen has been Debbies. I've seen several posts by several people stating the same or a similar view to my own. However, Debbie has stated to me and to the list, that she has received 'over 100' responses in her favour, and NO responses agreeing with my side of this issue. When asked about the numbers, she has stated that the people who approached her are afraid of flames. The Law of Averages states that at least *one* person agreeing with Debbie will have posted, it also states that at least one other person would have contacted her with a position similar to my own. A sampling of the posts sent to Debbie, without names and email addresses, if she so pleases (to 'protect' those who emailed her) would convince me at least that there really are all those people who hold the same position. I do not believe that I have been anything but polite on this issue. I have stated my case, and *yes* I was angry, so I wasn't as calm as I usually endeavour to be. I agreed that irresponsible breeders shouldn't breed. They shouldn't, as they result in sick animals, animals with genetic defects, or in animals which 'flood the market' as has happened in Michigan in recent years. Those are irresponsible breeders, who breed for the money, then when they find there *is* no money, they dump their animals for free or low charges just to 'get rid of them'. I do not agree that all breeders should shut their operations down, because I believe that it would be detrimental. Stopping small breeders from breeding would give the large breeders the leeway they wanted to get a firmer grip on the 'consumer market' and mean that ferrets are only available through pet stores, which FMLers have been fighting against for a long time. The breeding topic has, thus far, been one without any flames, which I've been grateful for. Let's hope it stays that way, and points of view can be looked at without others sticking fingers in their ears and yelling so they don't hear the other position. I can understand *why* Debbie feels the way she feels. It's an emotional response. I can understand that. I can't understand why she seems to feel that her opinion needs to be thrust on those who possibly have a greater understanding of the topic at hand. Sam Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead If everyone got together ferrets would be treated fairly. http://www.ferretfans.net [Posted in FML issue 2795]