Troy Lynn, know what you mean about getting the needle in with some of them. Fritter wasn't hard to sub-q, but when we had to do Hjalmar once afterward, his skin was so tough that the change from trying to enter to actually entering really scared me. He was also one of the two closest animals I've ever had in my life, too, and after it was done I was feeling nauseated, went into the bathroom and promptly fainted. It was the only time in my entire life that I have ever fainted from stress, and I'm someone who nursed my mom through terminal illness. It is so good to have this list each morning right now. It's always good to be able to share with special folks, and to read about ferrets, but right now with so much on my plate this break is extra special. Yes, they cry or moan (depending on the ferret and the situation) when things are really bad. Steve and I hope the kidney surgery turns out to be successful. There are times to just let a conversation die away; otherwise, the misinterpretations or rumors keep being imposed on everyone. People who insist on misinterpreting after an explanation has arrived will probably continue to do so no matter what you say. You just have to let that be their problem because it is not your's and it really is their's. Either they learn to listen and to forgive (and apologize if they are really classy and actually were at fault) or they aren't up to achieving that, yet. You can't do their maturing for them, and when they do it at their own rate it will "take" better. Hey, I was a slow learner on some aspects -- used to hurt easily and get angry easily before I realized that sometimes I was just taking other people's problems and making them mine in situations where I'd already done when could be done and really tried to consider all sides of an issue. My biggest problem was dealing with people who can't compromise -- who think it's "losing" -- then I realized that I have to see that as their short-coming and just let it roll off once I've done my part. If they won't listen to alternatives they can't be forced to listen, so just let it slide and move on to something constructive. Most prefer that. (Have to agree with another poster that people with anger problems (once they have matured past a point where they shouldn't have them in everyday life) need to treat that as a health issue, but the ones I've known with that difficulty are about the last people who would seek help because they see everything wrong as being someone else's fault and themselves as the victims of other people's "errors". It's a chronic victim behavior for too many, just as getting others to fight one's battles is a chronic victim behavior on the other end. Both are running scared; one just does it by calling for help while the other shows teeth. Either can upset the list by causing widening arguments. It's also better for ferrets to have owners who learn to accept responsibility in this life -- safer, better care, less dumping, etc. Hope the having fuzz-buzzes gets more and more people to look beyond themselves and act responsibly.) Read years back about some home-raised wolverines in a research project. Many of the play behaviors were the same as ferrets -- but adjusted for size. Arrggghhhhhhhhhhh... Yesterday I wrote: "Oh, pronounced age will often cause this shape, too, just as it can cause balding at times -- hey, just like in humans on both scores. To clarify I meant pear-shape, not water balloon belly in that sentence. One other point in relation to the arguments which made FML life unpleasant: for the most part there is no reason to have them. When there isn't a ferret life in the balance it's easier to relax and just take things off list. Remember, they are only words (Sticks and stones...). The movie The Matrix wasn't just an action flick; it was also a parable about internet communications. Do you remember how the rescue of Fishburne's character involved wild gunfire into the office yet he was unhurt by that gunfire because he was in a mental state in which he could not THINK he'd been hit? Do you recall how the lead character's only chance for survival would be to finally realize COMPLETELY that what he was undergoing while in the Matrix was ONLY mental -- only VIRTUAL? ("Do not try to bend the spoon..."). My point is that the people here can NOT turn around and bop you one on the snout. You are SAFE!!!!! You do not need to over-apologize, or ask for defenders directly or indirectly, and you certainly don't need to get ugly and angry. No one here can hit you, bite you, bash you over head, or whatever over your modem. You are physically isolated from us. So, take ten, deep, slow breaths, relax, think about the ISSUE at hand rather than the personalities and go from there. That will give the list the best chance of long survival and permit space for helping as many ferrets and ferret people as possible. What is said here is advice, but if there is one thing I've learned from being here from the beginning it's that people CHOOSE whether to take the advice or not. Ultimately, whatever happens in out of the poster's hands and in those of the reader. If people think that something is worth their money they will put their money there, if they think it's worth their time they will put their time there. Most will just read and do nothing interactive at all, ***nothing***, but they will learn ways to help their ferrets, try some, then try others -- as THEY decide. If too much space is spent on defensive gestures that aren't even needed, given that it's only a "matrix-reality" (i.e. virtual), then there won't be the space for posts which help more readers and thus help more ferrets. If you LET that virtual-projectile become a bullet in your chest rather than an interpretation which can be ignored, then you as much as the poster have caused your pain, by believing that you should be injured. Sukie (who is still learning and took a very long time to realize these things) [Posted in FML issue 2820]