First off I must say that I did not attend the show or see the twisting scruffing incident that was posted.... BUT this issue causes concern and since I have worked with severe biters coming from abusive or neglectful situations and in one particular case we worked with Angoras and Pastels from Denmark, I would like to comment. In none of these situations did we use any training technique that caused fear or pain to any of the ferrets and in my humble opinion there is never a viable reason to cause pain or fear. Years ago I did breed my ferrets and those of you who have been on the list for awhile may remember my few posts on this subject. It seems my practices may not be what is practiced by many of todays breeders. My ferrets were my companions, allowed out of cage time together and plenty of social time with me each and every day. Mothers were very warm towards other adult companions and all were very loving towards the kits, including the fathers and our dogs. From day 1 from birth, each and every kit was gently and lovingly handled and the mothers didn't mind at all. Well, they were a bit perturbed that the dogs cleaned their kits because THEN they had to clean doggie smells off of them. Socialization and cuddling was instituted from day 1 and I viewed it as a very important part of breeding. The reason I bred was because I wanted to share this wonderfully joyful creature with others. Throughout my professional career, both work and ferret related, I've learned that reputations are extremely important. A bad reputation will not reflect only on the person but also the organization on a whole. I encourage anyone who has a concern with any individual, organization or any of the volunteers practices to voice their concerns so that the issues can be corrected. Sometimes it is difficult to tackle certain issues, but I hope that we are all adult enough to understand that constructive critism is just that, and not meant as an attack on any individual or organization. A polite complaint to any individual or organization should be lodged without any fear of retaliation. No individual or organization is perfect and we should strive to make improvements when needed. When someone voices their concerns, corrections can be made, so it is very important that others speak up when they have a concern. It doesn't matter how long someone has been doing something, IF it is not being done humanely or correctly, they need to be politely told and their organization informed as well. While it is true there may be circumstances where 'what you see' is not necessarily all of the story, there is no excuse or reason for causing pain or fear to ferrets when training them. Another concern here is if this type of treatment was a public display, what type of treatment do the ferrets receive behind closed doors? Why would anyone want to cause pain to any other being..... Perhaps it is a good thing that I had not attended this particular show.... Please if anyone feels the need to flame, do it to my personal address so as not to use up valuable FML space. Hugs to all. tle (the one who uses gentle loving training methods) [Posted in FML issue 2758]