Hello! I missed most of this debate, again, thankfully, but did see something I always feel the need to add my unwanted opinion about. Someone mentioned a friend of a friend who left MF because of the conditions. This leads to a good debate playing devil's advocate. I'm not speaking personally about this specific individual because I don't know what happened, but I do see this a LOT, and read about this a LOT on this list. What good will "speaking up" do AFTER the horse has left the barn? Do people speak up while there? Do they make every effort to try and work within the established chain or do they just grumble along in disgust and then leave when a better job comes about? Or go to another pet store, or go to another shelter, or what ever the scenario may be? I find people like that to be just as bad as the people they grouse about. If you're not going to do something, if you're not going to stand up and be heard, then don't complain! Don't pass on info, don't point fingers, don't throw big stones, don't take the "safe" way out. I work in retail so I know a lot about this syndrome, I see and hear it every single day at work, and only in the past year have we begun to try and live this at work, to stop our bitching and confront it. It does work, and it does get results. What kind of results can you expect by what is now hear-say from a former employee? Zip. Julie [Posted in FML issue 2717]