There are many possible ways to get positive changes and the tactics and strategics used have a strong history of being discussed civily here. Getting the most from these discussions means that anyone who thinks that those with different approaches are terrible needs to add a pinch of tolerance, that's all. I well remember back when we actually debated on the internet whether it even made sense to try to get an effective USDA approved rabies vaccine for ferrets. Those who argued against were afraid that it would be like "admitting" that ferrets can get rabies (though its medical record), that it would call attention to the issue and thus and increase the numbers of FFZs (Don't know if it did or not.), and that it would call USDA attention to ferrets and maybe hurt them that way (It didn't.). You already know from the results what the pro-vaccine side argued because that's how it wound up. Then there were debates about whether shedding studies should be done, and these were far more painful because we all understood that this time there would be ferrets which would die to get the studies completed (NOT the case with the studies to get a vaccine -- in fact, Judi Bell still has one of those as a personal pet), so it broke down to who suspected that more ferets would be saved with the studies, and who suspected that legal actions could get the same result without more ferrets dying first than would be lost in the studies. Hard call, wasn't it? I don't think there was anyone who was happy with it either way. There were a few random souls who demonized the Compendium Committee chairwoman and the researchers, but most (on BOTH sides) realized that each group was trying in its own way to save as many ferrets as possible. Now we are debating what way is the potentially most effective way to get large breeders to change their practises. Some think that just giving as much bad press as possible will work. I don't agree, but then no matter what anyone says there are going to be multiple opinions and multiple approaches to tolerate for all of us, so that's just that. It doesn't really matter much who is right ultimately or who is wrong as long as we all try and make improvement civilly and with tolerance for multiple opinions. Even very recently such discussions have a civil history. You all already know that Bob and I are friends who go back a decent while, that he spent appreciated nights listening to me crying into his ear (over the phone) when we had very ill ferrets, that Steve and I sent him Ruffie rather than having a burial sight to visit because we knew that she could help his work for ferrets,etc. You've probably guessed that we know well that we can trust each other (and never had to meet face-to-face to establish this friendship and trust). You've seen us disagree, and neither of us gets upset by it. Go back a bit further and you'll find times when Troy Lynn and I were on opposite sides of the fence in some efforts, but we also remain complete and trusted friends. Ditto, Ronnie, ditto Pam, ditto... (You get the idea.) There's a long history on the FML of opinions being valued, and disagreements not becoming arguments as long as mutual respect and friendship are used. Others can verify this from their perspectives. Personally, I think that we should not turn our backs on what is wrong among the large breeders, but that some things such as changing the sterilization methods will ONLY happen through USDA changes in policy. This is because the profit margin is always going to be something the corporations involved will consider, and their competition needs to have the same costs added, unless we can brain-storm up a way for them to make improvements that are off-set by increased profits, or which aren't that expensive. I also firmly believe (having been brought up in family business and learning all my life what works in business settings to get changes) that the only way we will make improvements is to be able to present in a business-like fashion why and how those changes affect the business' profits. Yes, it sounds cold, but it's effective, and I am willing to have people think I'm being cold if some others will only think about what I am saying because I believe it stands the best chance of helping ferrets. Granted, there are people at MF who will just plain help ferrets because they are ferrets and loved (IMPORTANT contacts), but there are many influential ones who see only a product, so if we can present ways that they can help the ferret without jeapordizing their bottom line I think we stand the best chance of making changes that way. This means that we have to be realistic about BOTH what they do right and what they do wrong. A boycott by someone who would never buy one's product is one without any teeth. If MF looks and sees the FML as a place where their efforts to make improvements are lauded as well as their mistakes being aired, then they will be more inclined to make those improvements, and that is PROGRESS which SAVES FERRETS LIVES. If MF looks at the FML and sees a place where it is demonized then it will fall back to the business rule that: the only criticism which matters is criticism from potential customers. Those who make a company into devils-incarnate remove themselves from the effective opinion pool because they are NOT potential customers. FYI: to let MF know what YOU would like to see changed (or most effective -- what you like about them/their ferrets AND what you want changed) you can write them at: [log in to unmask] 5740 Limekiln Rd. Wolcott, N.Y. 14590 Be neither a captive audience, nor someone dead-set against them to have maximum effect in your letter. BTW, Bob did NOT demonize MF; he tackled a specific issue which is EXACTLY the way this should be done. I happened to know something he didn't know about that issue and it is good news so I shared it. No big deal. What do I think will happen if Marshall finds the pet industry unprofitable? I think that the folks at the top will increase the numbers to research. This means that we really need to THINK, because if we can show ways to improve conditions for the ferrets while not losing income we keep more ferrets in pet stock and fewer to research while we improve things for the ferrets there. [Posted in FML issue 2355]