The statistics gathered from the FML are biased at best and unusable at worst because there is no way I can demonstrate the demographics of the FML is similar to ferret owners as a whole, and between you and me, just the fact that every FML person has or uses a computer daily is evidence of that. Even taking into account several previous surveys, the demographics of the FML cannot be fairly compared to any other group. This has important implications regarding the ferret list in general, and one I need to discuss prior to the adrenal summary, because it sheds light on what we see posted here. I'm sure you have all heard the joke, "Those who are against me are liars, and those who use statistics against me are damn liars." You can use statistics to prove almost anything. All you need to find are two things that statistically correlate to each other and you can make a point. The problem is, a statistical correlation does not mean there is a cause and effect correlation. My favorite illustration of this is "Nearly 100% of people with severe hemorroids use toilet tissue." Statistically this is probably correct. The trouble is, no cause/effect relationship has been demonstrated. Statistics show mathematical correlations, but only people can take those correlations and look for cause/effect relationships. Scientifically, this requires rigourous controlled testing, which for those of you who are squimish about such things, usually involves the use of ferrets for medical research and their subsequent sacrifice. The toilet tissue argument is what is happening on the FML regarding adrenal disease. Read carefully; I am *NOT* saying *ANYONE* is wrong or right--all I am saying is not a single person has shown a cause-effect correlation. In addition, each and every one of the supposed solutions are done without scientific rigor nor with controls. By itself, this makes the data esentially useless. Not totally, but pretty much so. For example, and I am talking not just about homeopathic treatments but any treatment, how do you know the change in the ferret is due to a specific treatment and not because of additional handling? Touch therapy is as old as the beginning of human culture and it works; lots of studies have shown touch to increase immune responses and there are a couple of documented cases where touch therapy has been attributed to the remission of cancers in terminally ill people. So what part of treating the ferret is the additional touching, and what part the medicine? You don't have any controls, so you can never be sure. You can believe what you want, even suggest it as a course of action, but you have no proof. Another problem with FML data is we are subject to a constaint bombardment of symptoms, treatments, theories, etc. We are not the typical ferret owner. I know; I've met some and you would be extremely surprised to discover how little the average ferret owner actually knows about their carpet monkey. The longer you read the FML, the more you learn about ferrets until you reach the point that there are few medical surprises. This does two things; it makes each of us think we know as much as people who have spenta decade learning the physiology of animals, and it makes us feel hopeless in the face of certain severe illnesses. For example, I have been told canine distemper is 100% fatal, and I believe it. Yet, I know of at least three ferrets that has survived it, albeit with some sort of permanent disability. A similar thing occurrs with the constant infux of adrenal posts; we hear it so much that they become paramount in our mind, making the actual severity, demographics or survival rate shift from reality to FMLity, which you cannot assume to be true or real. In other words, because we hear of it so often, we start to grant it far more importance than it actually deserves. I think that false sense of danger taints our perceptions of how we view adrenal disease. While I may know what percentage of FML ferrets display adrenal disease (maybe 10%), MOST of them don't die from it until they are past 6 years of age. That is within the mortality window of the average ferret, even without adrenal disease. Think about this; what do you think *you* will die from when you get near that magical 77 year mark? Humans die of strokes, heart disease and cancers (unless you smoke and its much worse). Our species seems to have a weakness in those areas. The same might be true of ferrets; the "large" number of adrenal problems we see might be an indication that the ferret is actually in its declining years. Don't confuse the early onset type of adrenal disease with the late onset. I persoanlly believe we are looking at two different disease processes here, but more on that in the next--and last--post. So what I seem to be saying is we can come up with all sorts of reasons for the adrenal disease we seem to be seeing, but without proper statistical proceedure, known demographics, and careful analysis of the results, we really don't have anything other than rumor and enuendo. Yes, we *know* something is going on, but the relevance and extent of that knowledge is uncertain. What is needed is solid scientific research, the kind that resorts to experimentation on live animals. We need this basic knowledge base in order to accurately assess the true danger that exists to our ferrets. Science is very much like law (except a scientific dream team rarely gets millions of dollars) in that you must have unbroken links between the suspect and the event. Since arguments are similar to a series of links in a chain, break a single link and the entire argument fails. For every one of the possible reasons I could come up with that could cause adrenal disease, I could break one or more links, each the intellectual equivalent of "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit." Does this mean that none of the possibilities I've mentioned are possible? Of course not. I'm convinced more than ever that adrenal disease is an environmentally-triggered genetically-predisposed disease. Which is probably old news to those investigating the issue, but, belief is not evidence, and solid evidence for any cause/effect relationship simply does not exist in the literature. Now, I have a final post after this one and then I'll make myself available to answer questions on any research I've done, the references will be made available, etc. Bear in mind this sort of discussion is necessarily verbose, and with the size of the the FMLs lately, when a post goes over 125 lines I have to ship them to Bill who puts them in ASAP. So there is this sort of sureal waiting period until you see stuff. That isn't me back-pedalling or running off finding evidence, but just that I see the question one night, post the answer the next night and you see it the 3rd night (or later depending on various factors). Patience. And keep emotions out of it, ok? For much of this, I could easily do the equivalent of smashing a basketball in your face if I wanted to, but that would detract from the true purpose which is discussing the adrenal issues. It would only force me to use statistical evidence, making me a damn liar instead of just a liar. Bob C and 20 MO Four-Legged Fursnakes [Posted in FML issue 2233]