Hi Ed... Do you naturally use terminology that makes people angry or is it an affectation you use on the fml. really Ed.. sissy ferrets? real ferrets? You are the only individual I have ever heard use such terms when refering to ferrets of any kind. The fml may have a preponderance of postings dealing with ferrets in some measure ill in some way. And some of those posts may deal with ferrets who have gone beyond the veil that exists between this plane of existence and the one that holds the spirit of the ferret only. But after reading this list for years your the only one I have ever seen post anything that appears to criticise that practice. This list has been of immeasurable aid to hundreds of ferret people who have brought their problems and joys and griefs to a place where there exists a unique and caring group of people who can and will offer help, understanding, and caring and are consistently supportive of other ferret people no matter their walk of life, their ferrets condition, or their degree of need. I call that a public service done by a caring Moderator who recieves nothing in return for his daily work but the undying gratitute of the subscribers of this list to whom he gives so generously. You go on to make it plain that you feel the elaborate housing, the endless clever ways to entertain, the extensively researched food, the first quality verinary care, and the huge amounts of personal time these subscribers devote to their ferrets is abnormal. That, perhaps I have misread you here and if so I apologise, these ferrets would be better off housed out in the elements, in plain, deadly dull housing, with some sort of 'natural' food and given little or no attention would be far superior and enjoy longer lives. I suggest you take that one up with the shelter people who rescued and had treated, and then went to endless pains to place the pathetic survivors [via the ferret volunteer delivery corp.] all over the nation in the homes of these 'abnormal' ferret lovers. Those ferrets didn't need to be concerned with long life they were too busy fighting to stay alive at all! What are 'we' doing wrong? you ask.. well, Ed, my ferrets live a very long time. Unless, of course they are abused or starved or otherwise mangled before I get them. And even then, they get a good shot at health and long life.. How long is 'normal' to you? Five years? Eight years? How about 10 years? My Tiba was 16 years and three moths to the day when she died because her heart walls were so thin they all failed at once.. and she died snuggled up to me and in her sleep. I have since heard from a 'lady', one of those you mentioned in such a dreogatory way, who had one of her ferrets live to 17 years of age.. and from several others whose ferrets lived from 11 to 14 years before they too died naturally in their sleep. I have had many live to in excess of ten years of age. And those all had indoor homes and food tailored for ferrets and every entertainment I could devise. They only went outside when THEY chose to do so. We enjoyed many outings in suitable weather. Controlled outings, in a safe and sane manner, which included harnesses and leashes when out of the man made outdoor play area I created for them. In other words they led carefully constrained lives 'artificial' in all ways. I have recently seen postings from people with 8 plus years old ferrets,and even older ones than that. A vast majority of these ferrets were the ones you call 'butchered'. I venture you don't use that term with your human, surgically altered, friends who wish no further children to be born. We have all seen what uncontrolled birth has done to the poulation of dogs and cats. And many of us have seen all too clearly how that wretched overpopulation created by irresponsible humans could easily be repeated with the domestic ferret. Of course it is lamentable that some breeders choose to alter ferret kits at a very young age. Some of the people on this list are even now working toward correcting that practice. But trading one evil for the other is not a desireable alternative! The world is full of those who love to criticise and do little else. If you have constructive suggestions by all means offer them. But if all you can do is denigrate this list and those who subscribe to it, then for pity sake be silent! I, for one, value this list the majority of the people who gather here. FWIW.. IMHO... dayna and the woozles of the MMOMM rescue/shelter [Posted in FML issue 2138]