Q: ...what do you think of the current MF/adrenal thread? A: That it hangs by one. A couple of years ago I had a great idea about changes in bone caused by the combination of feeding and exercise. I set up an experiment, took X-rays, and wrote a paper for submission to a national journal. It came back in a few weeks, literally dripping red, with a large rubber stamp proclaiming "rejected for publication." The reason my paper was rejected is the exact same one that overshadows the current debate on the FML regarding adrenal disease and MF ferrets. We (the FML and shelters) have to overcome several problems with our data before it can be concidered valid. First, it is *NOT* enough to count the number of incidences at shelters and on the FML, and make predictions or assumptions. Why? Because the data are biased. Right off, I can tell you that most of the hobby/private breeders tend to be selective (or at least more sensitive) to whom they sell their ferrets to. The typical pet store I have experienced could care less, so long as the check doesn't bounce. As a consequence, MF ferrets disporportionately find their way to shelters because they are sold in large numbers, and because many of their owners typically do not have the same love of the beast as us ferret fanatics. Also, the FML owner is not the typical ferret owner. Generally, we are more educated, have more money (computers are not free), and tend to be more involved in our pets than many of the people I have seen hanging around pet stores. (This is in no way a flame of these people; it is simply a reminder that undereducated, even illiterate people can and do own ferrets, but not many of them subscribe to the FML) Second, for predictions to be valid, you have to account for every possible (or at least humanly possible) alternative, and then rank the possiblities according to probability. For example, you might see a lot of MF ferrets at several shelters becomeing ill. Does that mean all MF ferrets will get ill? Of course not. It could be random chance, it could be because of a local environmental problem, genetics, the result of early neutering, or perhaps the beasties that wind up in shelters get ill because of suppressed immune systems brought on by a lack of care prior to the shelter placement. In other words, even if every MF ferret came down with adrenal disease by 5 years of age, you could not scientifically say MF ferrets have that predisposition until you eliminate every other possibility. Kind of like innocent until proven guilty, if you will. Third, from what I've read, *no* one can adequately explain why ferrets tend to have adrenal disease. Without that baseline information, any judgement is problematic. For example, it might be an epiphenomenon of domestication, or natural selection. The disease normally occurs after the typical "wild" lifespan (4-5 years), so coming down with the disease would not normally impact the reproductive fitness of the species. In other words, wild polecats usually die before the disease is manifested, and we see it in ferrets because they live longer. This, BTW, has been recognized in many different species, including humans, for a long time. At the moment, it is a hot topic with evolutionary biologists, who tend to think the reason is nature's way of eliminating the older animals to make room for the younger ones, as well as causing an increase in variation because the older guys don't clog up the gene pool for inordinate amounts of time. Last, the Ca Ca fish and Gestapo, and many other anti-ferret forces, love to use ancedotal evidence (usually because of the glaring lack of scientific evidence) to prove their point. We cannot say, "no, no, no! Ancedotal evidence is not evidence at all," then turn around and use the same type of evidence to smear MF simply because we dislike their policies. So far, I have not seen any evidence to prove the contention that MF ferrets have a higher incidence of adrenal disease compared to, say, hobby breeders, other ferret farms, overseas breeders, or polecats, and until I do, I decline to take a position. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but using FML/shelter data is not the way to prove it. I could go on, as those of you involved in scientific careers can attest, but the point is made. We don't have reliable evidence, and saying so isn't proof. Some people indicate they want to start a data base, which is fine, but it unless it addresses the objections listed above, it means nothing. Let me use a human example. Does a local increase in childhood cancer indicate 1. randon chance, 2. environmental factors, 3. local genetic drift, 4. electromagnetism at schools, or 5. all of the above in one porportion or another? Just noting the occurence does not prove anything, especially if the data collection was not blind nor random. Without addressing the issues I've mentioned (and others unmentioned), you can count to infinity, and all you can say is ferrets get adrenal disease. If your hypothesis is "MF ferrets have a higher incidence of adrenal disease" then prove it scientifically. I am not saying to stop record keeping, nor am I supporting MF in any way. I'm just saying that we need to understand the problem before we level charges. We need accurate evidence that can stand up to statistical anaylsis. We need basic research, interested graduate students, and funding. So far, we can't even get these things for rabies testing, which INHO is a far greater problem at present. I have a suggestion. Someone should get a list of the higher institutions that use ferrets for biomedical research, and send the information to them. If they think they might have problem with their data because of medical problems with their ferrets, they will push for a resolution of the issue, or at least for the charges to be answered by MF (or any other breeder). Unless everyone on the FML chips in a couple of thousand bucks each year, I can't think of any other way to get the funding to perform basic research to address the issue. But now you have a new ethics problem, don't you? BTW, I have 18 ferrets; 8 from hobby breeders, the rest are MF. Buddy, at 8 years of age, is just starting to show signs of adrenal disease. Stella, at 4, is probably what I would term "pre-adrenal," that is, likely to develop the disease in the future. Both are from hobby breeders. All my MF ferrets came from shelters, and all are adrenally clean as a whistle. Mo' Bob and the 18 Furfaced Felons (all missing Gus) [Posted in FML issue 1735]