This is to Everybody but Especially Our Dear Fanglady! If I offend some folks or just plain stomp all over some ones cherished beliefs...I apologize in advance for doing so. But - Veterinarians are people just like you and I: they are made not born. Most go into the field in one area or another for purely personal reasons. Some become outstanding examples of the best a Vet can be, some are merely mediocre, and some are downright rotten at it. I have worked with a Large Animals Only vet. that is the greatest authority on horses and their diseases, psychology, and breeding, with a pretty great knowledge of any (normally found around people outside a zoo) livestock larger than 300 lbs and their offspring. He didn't start out that way, he started out like most Vet.'s to be a generally educated and competent heath care provider for anything from Gerbils to Great Pyrannese. Unfortunately peoples pets loathed him on sight and usually managed to let him know in ways that bled a lot. But while helping a local farm Vet. who was competent but little more one summer while healing from yet another rejecting patients evidence of displeasure, he discovered he had a natural affinity with and rapport with large livestock. He was astonished to find they positively loved him, they would let him do anything with or to them without a whisper of resistance. In fact many licked, rubbed, or leaned on him in excesses of affection even just after he had had to perform some particularly painful or unpleasant and uncomfortable procedure on them. He is a very smart man and he immediately went back to school and has eagerly grabbed every opportunity since to broaden and keep up to the minute his education concerning this area of Vet. Medicine. His custom all wheel drive Dooley Truck is every Vets dream...with portable x-ray and full lab equipment as part of its regular makeup...all scaled to use on animals that weigh up to 2000 lbs. He can unpack and set up a very well equipped field surgery and perform emergency surgery in remote places few vehicles would attempt to reach. He spared no expense in keeping it up to the minute, including a full big screen TV setup that allows him to review a procedure he has video tape of in his extensive in-truck library. And the matching trailer now under construction will offer even more cutting edge care than the incredible services he now makes routinely available to his patients. And from personal experience I can tell you that the delivery of your pony's first run of the mill foal is just as important and will be treated with the same level of excellence that he exhibits with his Multi-million thoroubred patients! Why the big speech? I hope Big will let this overlong piece go through but I can split it up if need be... Because his fees are no different than any other local vet that uses 1/2 the equipment and spends even less than 1/2 the time. He may never get rich but he is very very happy at what he does, and his clients would never think of going to anyone else. And his practice is Huge. How do I know all this...because he has me help him when the thoroughbred ranches are in foaling season (sometimes as many as 6-10 deliveries a night), we work well together because we see critter care the same way. So when I read a tale like Fanglady's post I really get irritated. I am unsure why she goes to other than one Vet. but I am sure there are good reasons. My experience has been...find one with the right attitude and a good heart and then make it my personal business to see that he/she has the information necessary to make that Vet an expert in treating the species I am bringing to him/her for treatment. As an Archivist I gather data and file is in a way that keeps it updated and easily available without a time consuming search when someone requests specific information. I have had many surprised people who e-mail me late ne afternoon and find their fax chattering at that nights 3 am time with (probably) more information on their subject than they ever thought was available. But I have also had the odd pleasure of having a follow up e-mail that told me they had rethought about purchasing a certain pet (often a ferret) because the information gave them enough expertise about the animal to know it was not appropriate for the purpose for which they had intended it. ie: not getting ferrets for twin 4 year old boys to be their pets...instead he bought a pair of Bassett Hounds from a line that is known for its tolerance and patience and love of mischievous kids. Or a message that said they had decided to order their chosen fur kid (s) but were also purchasing EVERYTHING including a 'got it when you need it' Medicine chest for possible urgent needs sometime in the future. Who benefits from all that...EVERYBODY, from the public who sees the pet with the owners, to the owners, to the pet, to the Vet. who gives Health care. So...You want an outstanding Vet. then get busy and Educate yours! Need to teach him/her about a surgical procedure?...get on the FML to the vets there and beg, plead, or whatever for a monograph on the procedure and also ask them if they would please video the next operation they do for that condition so your Vet can see in real time what may be hard to visualise from printed material... then duplicate that monograph and video for the Vet that gets it to you and send several sets of copies back to the helpful Vet. to be used as a lending Library for other Vets. whose patient's owners are helping them keep current with regard to your specific species (ferrets). Anybody want to bet on what the fee's will be like when you need services from that Vet you have gone to such lengths to help be an expert in caring for Ferrets??? Knowledge than cannot help but enlarge his practice, improve his professional reputation, and in time impact his income? And then there are the Vet.'s like the one in Fanglady's post! She is not lacking in intelligence, assertiveness, or mathematical ability or she could not run a rescue/shelter setup, but for some reason those attributes go on hold when Veterinarians charge her outrageous fees for less than satisfactory work! Maybe its the Doctor part of the picture that causes this freeze up, or maybe she is a person who doesn't;t handle confrontation with authority figures well...I don;t know, and it doesn't matter really, what matters is that she and her charges are being mistreated and stolen from by some one who should be far above such practices. Sadly nit all Vet.s are good people. Ask the Good ones they will tell you! If that were my situation I would be on the phone to my credit card company to rescind my permission and block payment of that bill... then I would either make an appointment to retalk it with the Vet. or sit down and write out my assessment of the situation and state what I feel is appropriate for the charges and what I am willing to pay. If someone promises you a cadillac and delivers a kiddie scooter you don't have to accept it and pay for it (while frowning and muttering). As for the consulting fee... if the Vet. insists on the charge - I would ask for a detailed billing statement and then begin to run a parallel column of figures based on minutes and or seconds spent doing each thing and offer to pay for them at the average amount payed to a Vet. per hhouse broken down to minutes and seconds. As for the explanation that it was incurred by questions asked...I would call three other Vets and ask them what a reasonable number of questions they consider part of a standard exam/treatment appointment..then average and subtract that number from the approximated number asked the billing vet then assign a minutes and seconds fee to each remaining question and offer to pay that collective amount. BUT, since she obviously helped hold the patients (excusing him from using one of his paid experienced and skilled med/techs) and in fact repeatedly rescued one of those patients from his irresponsible and dangerous practice of putting it in an unsafe place, I would again ask around what the going rate is for a skilled tech (not a minimum wage unknowledgeable office twit) and would then figure an assistants fee based on that pay scale and charge it back against the bill total, then paying the reconciled bottom line. With a written statement on the bill that expresses her willingness to have her bill reviewed by a Board of the Vet.'s Peers! If things got nasty I would bear in mind two can play at the bill - collection agency - credit record notification game. and also the I sue you for unpaid bill and you sue me for unpaid bill game. But never never pay for that kind of Arrogant Egotistic Greed from an incompetent Person ..Vet. or otherwise! dayna frazier 102046,3162 "Worry is the interest we pay on the trouble we borrow!" [Posted in FML issue 1580]