I just read Rudy the Ferlosopher's opinions on my earlier posting about meat and bulk in diets, and thought I would respond. This is not a flame, just a clarification of my position, which happens to disagre with his. Regarding the peanut butter test. No, it is not perfect, but works most of the time, and is a lot cheaper than running a lot of lab tests. When you squeeze and rub the peanut butter, it pushes out, forming a ring on your thumb. Do this with paper pulp (I make my own paper, BTW) and it will make small balls or 'snakes' once the water has been forced out. SInce my surgery, I have to drink fiber daily, and although I can't feel it very well with my thumb, I can feel it on my teeth. (Yuck!) Regarding natural versus manufactured foods. The perfect food for cats and ferrets is rodents and other small mammals, birds, amphibians, fish and various inverebrates. Period. Both carnivores evolved over millions of years eating basically the same diet (different niches), which is why everyone recommends feeding fuzzies a good cat food. The ferret may be domestic, but it has essentially identical nutritional requirements as it's wild kin. There is more to nutrition than proportion of fat to protien to bulk. There are enzymes, amino acids, steroids, and fatty acids (to name a very few) that can be specific to certain types of prey. Because the predator evolved (or if you prefer, adapted) to a specific diet, it can evolve a dependence for these substances. Hence the term 'essential' is applied to certain minerals, and amino and fatty acids. I am not arrogant enough to assume I can do better with a few decades of research than nature can after a few millions of years of evolution. BTW, how was data originally generated for cat/ferret food makers to know what to put in the feed? You chop up, blend, or otherwise macerate the prey species, and then do an analysis on the resulting pulp. Then, knowing the basic proportions of fat to protein to whatever, they buy up the cheapest sources of protein available (rendering-house and mammal- poultry-fish wastes--i.e., "by products" or the parts humans don't eat). They mix the stuff together in the same proportions as the wild game, throw in a binder and antioxidant, then dehydrate it into pellets. Problem is, the protein and fat may be in the correct proportions, but the feed may be missing hundreds of chemical components only available from the prey species. Human engineered food products have been "optimized" through comparison to the original source, the prey species. So in effect, you have argued that cat/ferret food is better than real food, because the manufacturers dissected the prey foods to determine optimal composition, and then copied them using cheap protein and fat sources. I know this is simplistic; they also test urine and feces to see that is passed through, and they decrease or increase various proportions until the poop is optimized. (Whata job: "Hi, I'm Bob, a Perina Sh*t-Checker...) Zoologists, especially those involved in mantaining captive wild animal populations, know this all too well. Most zoos with successful reproduction records feed their animals as natural a diet as possible. There is a significant correlation between natural diets and reproductive success. Go figure. Serious research on the human diet is about a century old, yet each week we find out we need some nutrient missing from our 'modern' diets. We are only now discovering the health benefits of fiber, essential amino and fatty acids, and minerals. I'm sorry, but you just can't beat a natural diet to optimize health. Besides, I think if you reread the post, I wasn't advocating switching diets, but supplementing them, so the fuzzies have as natural a diet as possible using cat food as the base. While I have presented this argument as opinion (no provided references) to save space, they are facts with scientific evidence to back them up. I have LOTS more stuff to support the argument, and would be happy to expand the subject with anyone who can show evidence or proof of their positions (rather than just opinions). E-mail or telephone me. I'm in the phonebook. In defense of Rudy, I have been trained as an evolutionary paleobiologist and archaeologist, and this subject is part of my PhD work (I study mustelids to use them as indicator species in ecosystem reconstruction. I HAVE to know that they eat, how they live, relationships, etc.). This is a very complex and difficult problem that big-time feed makers spend big bucks trying to solve. There are scores of scientific journals devoted to the issue. Think of this like the motor of your car. Dry foods are basically like a general tune-up. Both maintain the health of the system. But weekend-mechanics know how much better the engine runs after some "tweaking"....Think of the suppliments as tweaking the ferret's motor. (Oh God, just what I need. Ferrets with even MORE energy...) On another note, I mentioned being pun-ished by Jeff Johnston. Now Pamela Greene has e-nailed (pun, not typo) me as well. Very punny. Did I hear a gantlet thrown? Bob "These be air-o-head scars on ma tummy...didna hurt" Church Moose, Stella, Daye, Tori, Bear, Apollo, Foster, Buddy, and Razz. Bear says to Foster, "Lets dook it out, old boy." Foster says, "When I dook, you better duck!" [Posted in FML issue 1397]