Seriously, folks, I am seeing a lot of people who just want to fling around unpleasant accusations and names on both sides. Let's have those who have run ferret shelters for no fewer than 5 years, and people who are used to controlling parents and their violent children (experienced teachers, social workers, and police) teach everyone here. For example, Roberta's post was great. I tried to find mental health works on "instant experts" to point out -- beyond the OBVIOUS factors -- why info from such real experts who have put in a lot of time can be worth more in this situation to help all of us, but either there is a term I don't know for such people who take such actions as thinking that they know all (or a great deal) with little time invested, or the topic is not studied, or I simply blew the search. Any of those is possible, I guess. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of know-nothings or know-littles yelling and no one learns. Everyone, at any stage of learning has opinions, that is a fact, but if we are fortunate enough to hear from people who know this sort of difficulty well then we call all learn and THAT is ultimately what will best save ferrets. In relation to what constitutes a hoarder: yes, that is a person who have ANY number of animals that the individual can not care for properly, so someone with filthy conditions or lack of veterinary care or both can be hoarder with only one or two animals, but sadly there usually are many more animals involved. Then again, there are people with a large number of animals who never-the-less provide excellent care and they are not hoarders. Here are some expert URLs on hoarding: http://www.tufts.edu/vet/cfa/hoarding/ http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/oct02/021015a.asp http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/54031?verify=0 http://www.pet-abuse.com/database/ THEREFORE: Using the word "hoarder" without evidence of hoarding not only causes needless pain, but it undermines the strength of the term when real hoarders are later tackled. Sukie (not a vet) Recommended ferret health links: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/ http://ferrethealth.org/archive/ http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html http://www.miamiferret.org/ http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/ http://www.ferretcongress.org/ http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html all ferret topics: http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html HAPPY: http://www.6footsix.com/my_weblog/2010/01/high-fives-for-happiness.html "All hail the procrastinators for they shall rule the world tomorrow." (2010, Steve Crandall) [Posted in FML 6581]