Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see any mud slinging in this thread. In fact, I was enjoying the discussion because I was learning about all different viewpoints. However, I was irritated to wake up to topic line like this. Kim, maybe you felt like something said was over the line. But even if I did miss something that was meant to be harsh, I was really hoping that if any strongly worded posts came along on this topic others wouldn't follow suit. I was hoping that for a change people would stay focused and listen to "what" was said rather than "how" it was said. I could pick through and dissect parts of your post that I think are, well, snarky. But instead I listened to what was said ... the heart and core of what you were expressing and contributing. Anyway, on to your post. To answer your questions, there is a huge difference between a creature that has a thinking conscious brain and an invertebrate that does not. They process pain differently. And animals with little to no part of the brain that is able to do anything but "think" in reflex and instinct does not anticipate the fear of pain to come or impending death. To compare them is extreme and bordering on not being rational. And you know what? Yes it does makes most people who are hyper sensitive to the feelings of all walks of life feel really bad about something as common as feeding fish insects. The difference is most of them only feed animals live prey when they are forced to. Some FML'ers here, don't even do that! They make the choice to not own pets who require live feeding to live. The fact is, most pets do not require live feedings to live and to live well. A domestic ferret is just that. Domestic, just like a dog or cat. It's "more" domestic than a cat in fact. If people were told that feeding live prey to dogs and cats were "better" for them, they still would not do it. It's unnecessary. For many people, the consideration for the smaller creatures well being outweighs any unstudied and theorized benefits of feeding live animals. In some parts of the country, feeding live creatures to dogs is actually illegal. Why would a ferret be any different? Many zoo's won't feed live food to their animals if they don't have to. They opt feed prekilled prey whenever possible and enrich the predators lives in a variety of other ways. Many zoos simulate the chase of the whole prey for tigers for example. You said that when a ferret kills a mouse, it's quick. I didnt' respond to that because I felt like I had no right to as you are more experienced in live feeding than I am. But, now that I am posting again on the subject I'll say this. I have fed live crickets on occasion to my ferrets in the past because people who strongly believe in the benefits of live food, such as yourself convinced me, to at least try ... or start small and compromise by using insects rather than mammals. And other than two, all of my ferrets did in fact take a bit of time to kill them. I had several that did enjoy playing with them first. Pong, the smartest ferret I ever owned, did something interesting. He would systematically bite each cricket he encountered to wound them so they could not escape easily so he could play with them for a while. Later, he'd suddenly tire of the game, and would chow them down. Even if a ferret is strikingly quick and efficient with their kill, I'm sorry but a mammal "knows" there is a terrifying danger. And while they are being chewed alive, they scream out in pain. I've heard the mice scream sometimes when my son feeds his snakes. And much of the time, they strike the side of the head and neck breaking it making the death much quicker. Anything that does not take a couple seconds and does not render you unconscious is not "quick". They say the bear that killed naturalist, Timothy Treadwell, didn't take "long". But tell that to Tim. I'm sure he was not thinking it was "quick" as his skull was being crushed and he was eaten alive. If you and others strongly believe in what you do. I understand that. I even keep in mind that I may be wrong and I try to learn from everyone's experiences, now matter how little or great. But I feel the need to address the fact that some people feel pressured or even guilty in how they are raising their ferrets because of a few of the more vocal, stronger opinionated, natural feeders. And they have no reason to feel that way at this point. None whatsoever. They are feeding their animals food that has been studied. They are doing the best that they can, just as you are. I know of many ferret people who let bills go unpaid just so they can give their ferrets the very best food and supplements on the market. There are several on the FML that feed live, but they don't try to tell me that what I believe is wrong. And I never, ever push my beliefs about what I think is ethical or not onto them. I respect them too much. They have been nothing but supportive of how I feed my ferrets, and they have never been anything but gentle in discussing what they believe in and practice (by the way to those of you whom I've enjoyed such discussions with in the past, I'm so appreciative for that). Because of their low key approach, I'm wildly open to the subject. I myself never said anything was barbaric. At the time I offered up no opinion there (even though I had one). I brought up "ethics to consider" in my post not for myself, but to supposition what others might think is a serious issue just like I brought up other things that might be on peoples minds concerning the subject. I just hate that this topic is starting to turn a bit personal and emotional for some. People can discuss feelings, beliefs, and theories about whether live feeding has a positive or negative impact on ferrets and have any ethical issues concerning the "food" without preaching that they are right and without picking apart their words. Kim, you are assertive, direct, and even opinionated but you usually stay within bounds of being reasonable and polite. As a reader, even if others provoke you or don't act well, two wrongs don't make a right. Lastly, please understand that as far as this topic goes, anything other than the nutritional value of feeding is pretty much subjective at this point and we should all be open to all sides. All we have are anecdotes and theories. Those are very important with the lack of formal studies, especially from the veteran ferret owners. In fact, unless you have seen many ferrets over a life time (the ferrets) of natural vs other ferrets raised on kibble over a lifetime, it should really be presented carefully if at all. [most of this is actually directed towards the FML as a whole, only bits are specific to Kim ... just so she doesn't think I"m singling her out or anything] [Posted in FML 6233]