Millie, I loved your balanced post today! I think that among ferret people when things get out of hand for someone who was trying to help there is the realization, especially if the animals taken in were already compromised, that things can go wrong really rapidly. So, people worry, "There but for good fortune and volunteers go I" but in reality I think that most would call for help, and that is backed by the low numbers of actual hoarders found: about 700 a year in the U.S. Still, people do tend to identify with those they know or those with similarities, whether they should or should not. You said that Animal Control must have been involved before for there to have been a seizure. Articles I have read indicated that this was apparently a third time. I don't know if they had that right, of course. In really extreme cases (i.e. OTHER cases) sometimes seizure happens straight away, for instance, in one other case recently the conditions were so bad that the home was condemned. Of course, even in extreme cases (such as the Irish one and the Welsh one recently, each of which involved degrees of cannibalism by the animals to survive according to newspaper articles) even people who have been banned due to past hoarding have a tendency to fall into that behavioral disease trap again. Both Renee and i carried the UK link for one of those yesterday. Some things about actual hoarders for when people make their own decisions about DEGREE of behavior: 1. Often they convince themselves that the animals are better off with them rather than with anyone else 2. If they face having to give up animals some will instead try to have the animals destroyed as per the first comment 3. They sometimes steal the animals of others and will use any excuse to do so, but it boils down to them believing the first comment 4. They often convince themselves that they know more about medical needs than veterinarians do and tend to not provide needed veterinary care. That is one of the reason that the history of medical care becomes so important. The amount of medical care provided compared to the number of ferrets present will be considered along with the condition of the animals. For already compromised animals the amount of veterinary care will need to be higher than for healthy ones for obvious reasons. Again, see the first comment. 5. Often their homes also lack sanitary conditions: uncontrolled and extreme piles of feces, garbage that has been sitting around for ages, etc. 6. Often the time needed by the overwhelming number of animals and the unsanitary conditions also undermine the health of the person, even when the animals' needs are not being met, so the situation spirals. Some things that can happen with unsanitary conditions: such high bacterial loads that it is impossible to have safe food in the house, high enough levels of ammonia to damage respiratory health, fire hazards, parasites, extreme rodent infestations, etc. According to Dr. Gary Patronek, an expert on animal hoarding, "The drive to do this is so strong that recidivism is almost 100 percent." Of course, there are multiple types of animal abuse, some of which have entirely different nuances, for example, those engaging in Munchasen by Proxy may purposely make their animals ill to spend more time getting attention. Some resources (but some might no longer exist): Hoarding, MBP, misuse of animals to get drugs, and other Animal Abuse: AVMA: http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/oct02/021015a.asp Tufts site with extensive information: http://www.tufts.edu/vet/cfa/hoarding/ Psychiatric journal article on hoarding: http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p000425.html HSUS: <http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/behind_closed_doors_the_horrors_of_animal_hoarding.html> Pet abuse database: http://www.pet-abuse.com/database/ http://www.jaapl.org/cgi/reprint/30/4/520.pdf http://www.vet.utk.edu/violence/pdf/munchausen.pdf http://www.animaltherapy.net/Vets-abuse.html http://www.vet.utk.edu/violence/pdf/accidental.pdf http://www.veterinaryireland.ie/ivj/july%2005/peer.pdf Cruelty to animals becomes cruelty to humans (useful info for cases brought against abusers): http://www.vachss.com/guest_dispatches/ascione_3.html Animal Welfare Act: http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/legislat/awa.htm USDA publications to find regulations: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/publications.html Sukie (not a vet) Recommended ferret health links: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/ http://ferrethealth.org/archive/ http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc/ http://www.ferretcongress.org/ http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html [Posted in FML 5873]