Now, granted, my memory is not working all that well right now with so much going on in my own life, but didn't Lori's vets provide initial vet exams, initial parasite treatments, initial vaccinations, participate in the ADV tests (which I think were donated?), and also have to treat some who were in a very bad way? Didn't some have struvite uroliths from a diet too high in vegetable material at the farm? With about 500 ferrets that initial care is sure to add up. For all of us some of the answers might actually be in the archives but we have simply forgotten those pieces over time. I know there are gaps, though, and I do understand donors wanting disclosure because I am a careful donor myself, and think progress has been made in that direction. More is needed, but we are all here to learn, so that can be done with grace and responsibility, just as accepting and using gifts should be. Yes, there may be some expenses that are questionable, but we don't know if they came from donations or personal money, and as someone who gave to help provide cages I'd have liked those to have been more graciously and constructively received and handled... Still, I think that part of the confusion is from those of us (most of us here) who have not worked a major rescue simply not understanding the nuts and bolts, and the source of additional confusion likely lies elsewhere -- with both sides needing some deep breaths and more listening and constructive sharing. I also think there are some personality problems going on because the axiom that people should be treated in the way one would like to be treated herself or himself wound up forgotten a few times too many, by some principals and by too many uninformed third parties on each side. People cut away their own needed connections in the world if they don't communicate, share, carry the same burdens, and especially is they don't show real and heart-felt thanks for those who help. That problem has happened to so many here over the years that you'd think more would catch on and avoid it themselves, wouldn't you? Like others, some other things beyond health care confuse me more, and I think that perhaps the volunteers who were there, being third party observers can best inform about some things with the best general acceptance now that too many are drawing sides on either side (with a few on each side starting to get angry and rude prematurely). It may be, though, that the behavior of a few on each side who have been name calling and the like might make that input impossible, which is sad and real loss for us all since otherwise we all could learn and it would help many more ferrets in future years. It seems there are third parties drawing conclusions with too little data on both sides, and that doesn't hurt too much if people continue to listen and are not rude. At first things weren't rude. There is nothing wrong with asking questions. Now, though, there has been the start of needless rudeness, and it seems to be pretty much NOT (primarily?) from anyone directly involved, but pretty much mostly or all from third parties. Isn't that so often the way with list fights? Often the principal people can settle things pretty rapidly, but in jump third party "defenders" on either side and long after the fight has been settled -- and sometimes there never were fights -- those "defenders" on each side continue to create and fan flames. Heck, one time -- after another huge rescue (over 100 ferrets and pretty much all in very bad health so the vet needs were enormous) and then a major abuse and hoarding case two friends handled I remember a third party insisting that each of those friends was privately insulting the other -- the major part of those assertions done through the rumor mill -- until one of those two people who worked together actually came to believe it and those two who cooperated then finally did fight with each other. To this day i think it was the animal hoarder who began the rumors, effectively hurting both rescuers very badly and destroying a relationship which greatly helped ferrets. Get a grip, folks, please! Yes, ask questions, but politely. Yes, give answers, but politely. MY HOPE FOR WHAT CAN COME FROM THIS: There are a LOT of assumptions on what is involved in major rescues but FEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY KNOW. The IFC has some rough data put together by those involved in earlier rescues and prosecutions -- important stuff like cooperating with state or national recognized humane rescue authorities when prosecution is going to happen, not using digital cameras (because courts tend to throw that out so use film and also present the negatives), taking the shots with things that show dates (like newspapers), having signed witness statements, etc. Yet, even when there is not a prosecution going on the sheer logistics involved for a major rescue are stunning and mind boggling. IF WE SHARE MORE OF THAT INFO -- THE HOW TO INFO -- THEN THE EXPENSES MAY MAKE MORE SENSE TO MOST AND ALL WILL LEARN FOR NEXT TIME. And THAT, my friends, is what will best help ferrets! Count on there being a next time; there always is. Learn and prepare. Time to stop fighting and be constructive and forward thinking, please. [Posted in FML 5812]