BTW, in the FML Archives you can find popular non-cooking methods to "kill" salmonella which either do not work or not safe discussed with supporting data and where to find those references. It is important to know what to avoid, and if skipping a step that doesn't work anyway saves time for someone who wants to feed raw, well... Anyway, it hit me that this may be new info to a number of people here: http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/bacteria/ includes: >Links to Other Disorders > >Scientists suspect that foodborne pathogens are linked to chronic >disorders and can even cause permanent tissue or organ destruction. >Research suggests that when some people are infected by foodborne >pathogens, the activation of their immune system can trigger an >inappropriate autoimmune response, which means the immune system >attacks the body's own cells. In some people, an autoimmune response >leads to a chronic health condition. >Chronic disorders that may be triggered by foodborne pathogens are > >arthritis >inflammatory bowel disease >kidney failure >Guillain-BarrE syndrome >autoimmune disorders >Further research is needed to explain the link. (i.e. note that those are hypothetical but that there is suggestive data.) The problem with raisins or grapes and kidney failure is NOT hypothetical. They are a well documented cause of kidney failure in dogs and ferrets. Why does it happen to some individuals and not others? No one knows, but raisins have killed ferrets and left others with limited lives from kidney damage. Amounts involved for ferrets can be found in FML and FHL Archvies. The feces of most carnivores is so high in nitrogen that it is usually avoided in fertilizers due to it "burning" the plants. -- Sukie (not a vet, and whose choice after reading widely is to feed cooked things to the ferrets because that is just the way that weighing the info worked out for me) Ferret Health List co-moderator http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ferrethealth FHL Archives fan http://ferrethealth.org/archive/ replacing http://fhl.sonic-weasel.org International Ferret Congress advisor http://www.ferretcongress.org [Posted in FML issue 5158]