We all already know that not everyone will agree on everything. That is a given. In theory it would be nice and we all often think of it when imagining the list in a Utopian way, but to quote Yogi Berra: >In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. I realize that possibly there are going to be those here who will care more about a personal fight with another list member than about an issue under discussion. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOT LET SUCH INDIVIDUALS' PERSONAL FIGHTS DERAIL ANY PART OF CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION. All too often people who react in extremes have damaged very productive efforts to help ferrets. Since the FML was first created I have seen this happen repeatedly with legalization campaigns (actually destroying some campaigns and losing them effective cooperation -- one even drove away the man who at that time was the single most influential ASPCA official in the U.S., and several stupid fights within the ferret community delayed legalization by years in some locations), with health studies, with other product campaigns, and more. If people skip the most inflammatory posts designed to either get attention or to pursue a grudge, and instead concentrate on those which present ideas worthy of consideration then progress will be made. If the inflammatory posts are not skipped then keep them VERY, VERY SEPARATE IN YOUR OWN MIND from the actual productive work that is going on. When people review the past mails on the things which can be done to best change what products are sold into ones which are less hazardous you will notice something very important: the principal individuals have NOT been inflammatory. They have merely stated their stances and their questions in a logical and politely unemotional fashion. Nor can I recall any of the principals saying that they would never again shop at a store which sold the potentially dangerous products. They said that they would not shop at such stores while there was a better alternative. "Never again" is pretty useless as a statement, anyway. Why try to please someone who isn't going to return ever? Right now I am not buying from any place which is reordering foods that have fruit or veggie chunks in them which can cause blockages. Yes, I would also like to see junk foods dropped but I care more about the acutely dangerous items personally. As a Ferret Health List* co-moderator I've spent some all-nighters trying to get people to have an emergency vet appointment for ferrets whose lives were placed at risk by such blockages and who needed emergency major surgery to survive. So, for me personally it would be too hypocritical and too much like shooting myself in the foot to put our own family money into a place -- even one for which I care -- which sells such products when alternatives exist. Is that forever? I sure hope not. I have emotional ties to the one I'd been patronizing. Still, I think that morally -- from my own take on the situation -- I just personally have to do this as our own monetary choice. I grew up in retail and luxury retail sales, and I was later in retail management (mostly clothing) before I left my career to care for my terminally ill mother, after which I put myself through college. I can tell you that stores and chains make choice to NOT carry products -- even those which may be in demand -- ALL THE TIME. They do so because returns for refunds are too expensive if the manufacture is questionable. They do so because they don't want kids who come into the store to see certain things. They do so when a health risk is discovered -- as when we also ate the expense and pulled all the non-sealed pewter from our gift item shelves when it came out that there was a lead exposure risk. There are a million and one reasons why retail companies choose to no longer carry a certain product or to not add it to the line-up. It happens everyday everywhere. Sometimes the last of the products are sold and then the items are not re-ordered, and other times the last of the products on the shelves are not sold and the items are not re-ordered. Now, some manufacturers make this more difficult by insisting that a certain grouping of items be purchased. One company for which I worked had its own solution for that. It bought the grouping after the reasons it did not want to do so were ignored. Then it returned for refund -- as defective -- all of the unwanted items documenting that the dye did not hold up to antiperspirant, or the seams had so little fabric involved that a rapid tear was too likely, etc. Personally, I think that a food which has a risk of causing a fatal blockage is defective. Ditto one that can damage kidneys. Ditto some others. Anyone who asks me why I spend money on ferret products will find that "so that they can wind up in the hospital critically ill" is not among my reasons. Still, I do have to admit that I like to have some junk food now and then. Right now I wouldn't mind a Twinkie so it is lucky we don't have any here. Yet, how much of that would I give a child under my care? Obviously, I would exercise some caution and attempt some education about wise product selection. When talking about dangerous or junk foods for ferrets and comparing to human junk food it is a far more consistent parallel to compare what one would do for a child under one's care than what one does for oneself. We're all a bit less careful with ourselves than with others whom we love, I think. Furthermore, I don't think that anyone here would be inclined to buy food at a place where the food posed the level of significant danger that items which can cause blockages pose. If your local grocery store always had rotten meat on the shelves you'd go to a different market -- even if you didn't eat meat. That does not mean that you would not consider giving the store a new chance once they improved, of course, just that the meat so turned you off as a SERIOUS AND AVOIDABLE HAZARD that until corrections are made you'd rather travel. Changing products for the better is something people here have over and over and over said that they strongly want. And face it, the ferret and ferret product market is about 2 Billion (yes, "B") dollars annually in the U.S., as per Ken Wells of the Wall Street Journal, so it's not as if companies are not jumping onto the bandwagon with junk to make a fast buck. It is time to CELEBRATE that some stores are doing exactly making improvements in their product selection for health reasons! THAT is the HARD FACT which is being lost when people become over-wrought. When their stock is sold out there are places which will NOT re-order dangerous products from a range of manufacturers. Here is an ACHIEVEMENT which pretty well all of us year after year after year thought could never be done, but in some stores it is actually happening! IT IS REAL! (There are a few who fail to celebrate and instead only try to downplay this achievement but doing so reminds me of one person in 1998 who tried to put an inaccurate slant on the improvements to the Compendium of Animal Rabies Control and Prevention. It bugged him that someone else had succeeded instead of him getting glory. So, instead of celebrating he tried to corrupt the database. Actions like that show that ferrets and their welfare do not come first for the individual who tries to derail constructive efforts. Such needy egos only hurt ferrets.) So, while you are discussing this topic TAKE TIME TO CELEBRATE THE PROGRESS WHICH HAS BEEN MADE SO FAR. Take time to thank the IFC which was instrumental in making this progress. Take time to thank the stores like PetSmart and Ferret Depot which are making changes for the better by refusing to reorder hazardous products. Take time to thank those in other stores -- like the vet in Petco -- who want to also make health-based improvements and have requested your polite input to help them present the case needed to do so in their companies. To make that even better once the stores change buying patterns know then the manufacturers know without a doubt that they need to concentrate on producing safer items for ferrets. It is not like that is a major imposition. Think of all the product changes which happen for less serious reasons like fads. Products change all the time. Besides, products for birds and rodents never were right for ferrets. It is not as if these companies can't do this. Some mention repeatedly on their sites that they have research staff, and let's face facts that any subsidiary of a major conglomerate with a logical staff can figure out how to have treats which are based upon meats, hardened gelatin, and other decent foodstuffs for ferrets. So, the final upshot is more healthy alternatives will be introduced to replace the ones that should be relabeled back for use by the birds and rodents for whom they were originally designed. Heck, maybe the stores themselves could even just arrange with the manufacturer for in-house re-packaging to sell for those species which would benefit from foods unsafe for ferrets. This improvement FOR THE FERRETS is more than a hope of what can be done -- in some stores is already has been done. Celebrate that and find your own preferred ways to encourage more progress FOR THE SAKE OF THE FERRETS AND THEIR HEALTH. Sukie -- just speaking for myself and again reminding people to ignore those who turn this discussion away from constructive comments and into fights or attention-seeking displays -- because most of us here are constructive people * http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ferrethealth [Posted in FML issue 4889]