shron33 said; >...though he liked Natural Gold, it gave him loose poop and the vet >said not to give it to him. Bob C: Natural Gold for Ferrets is still under formulation so the recipe is still being tweaked a bit. The loose poop is not actually a problem provided Rocky has adequate fluids; his system is probably just not used to the quantity of fat. It gave my ferrets stools the consistency and color of Nutrical for a few weeks, but they have recently firmed up somewhat. Newer production runs have been tweaked a bit, so it isn't as much of a problem. There are two things here of importance. One comment is about your vet, but I'll put that on the back burner for a moment. Natural Gold is not only a new food, it is also a radically different food. For example, it only has 10% carbohydrates (or less), while the best of other ferret foods are 2 to 3 times that amount. I have found from my own experiences and from the reports of my friends that placing a ferret on Natural Gold almost always causes a couple of weeks of soft, even runny stools. Part of this is because the food is different and it takes time for the intestines to adjust to it. Part is because of the high fat content. And perhaps the greatest part is because it changes the ecology of the gut, which impacts the bacterial flora. The ferret will adapt to all of these factors if given enough time; perhaps up to a month. Bob s Chicken Gravy will do the same thing when first given. As I mentioned, as long as the ferret has enough water, the loose stools are not a problem. shron33 said: >He also said ferrets don't need 50% protein; they don't get that much in >the wild. He said 30-35% is adequate. Bob C: NOW I'll talk about the vet. I don't know a nice way of putting this, but I have found from my experience fewer vets than you would imagine know much about pet nutrition, to say nothing about the needs of ferrets. They all say they know, and they all act as if they know, and if you suggest otherwise some will get red-faced and scream that they know, but the truth is the majority of them know about as much about ferret nutrition as I know about golf, and all I really care to know about golf is that my beloved Mr. Clemens said it was a good walk spoiled and I believe him. Besides, REAL athletes can tune out crowd noise; Berry Bonds impresses me, Tiger Woods does not. First, the vet is dead wrong about the protein levels from the wild. What does the vet think prey bodies are made of- -broccoli? Just think about this for a second. Even a well-fed mouse with a gut full of grain is going to have less than 5% carbohydrate content. So what is left? Fats, minerals (ash), and proteins, and that's about it. As a zooarchaeologist, I can tell you the skeleton in animals a ferret would eat rarely exceeds 10-15% of the body mass and the fat content of healthy wild animals averages to between 15-25%, which means the remainder is protein. So, if the ferret was fed a wild animal with a body composition of 5% carbohydrate, 15% minerals, and 25% fat (a really fat little morsel), the remaining 55% would be- -you guessed it- -proteins! These numbers are not so far off of the whole body composition of a rabbit, being < 1% carbs, 12.2% ash, 22.6% crude fat, and 61.8% crude protein on a dry matter basis. In other words, your vet is simply wrong; ferrets are polecats, and polecats have evolved for millions of years consuming animals having higher than 50% protein content. Ferret nutritional standards are not well known. Currently, the best published information on ferret nutrition is in Fox's book, but that study is biased. It doesn't actually tell you what the best diet is for ferrets, but rather describes a diet constructed by Marshall Farms that promotes successful ferret reproduction and kit survival. No one knows how that compares to the needs of non-breeding pet ferrets, such as older neutered males with little physical activity. One way to get around this problem without spending gobs of money on research is to make the assumption ferrets evolved eating a specific diet, and provide a nutritionally similar alternative. That is what is behind Natural Gold; I understand it is designed to be the nutritional equivalent of polecat prey, which is why the proteins and fats are high and the carbs are low. To me the deciding point on high protein is that ferrets that don't eat carbohydrates use fats and proteins for energy. When most mammals use protein for energy, the waste products tend to build up and make the blood acidic, definitely not a good thing. However, ferrets, polecats, mink and weasels (and cats and many other carnivores) have a special metabolic pathway that makes glucose without the ill effects, and therefore DO NOT HAVE A CARBOHYDRATE REQUIREMENT. Insulinoma is almost entirely due to a long-term diet of carbohydrate-rich kibble; there is no other significant reason. When you have a food like Pretty Bird's Natural Gold where the carbohydrate content is drastically reduced, the ratio of proteins and fats will naturally increase, which is good because the ferret needs them to make blood sugar. ANY vet (or any other ferret professional) who doesn't understand the ferrets unique metabolism and their specialized adaptations to a high protein, high fat diet, is not qualified to pontificate on ferret nutritional requirements. shron33 said: >He seems to want to subsist on my chicken gravy (and treats, including >cat and kitten food), but I don't trust its nutritional content. Why >does he like cat food better than ferret food? Bob C: If you make Bob s Chicken Gravy like I have said to do it, your ferrets are meeting their nutritional requirements, especially if eating other foods. If you have changed my gravy formulation, then you could be changing the Ca:P ratios, the balance of essential fatty and amino acids, and even the fat to protein ratios. In that case, it is NOT my chicken gravy and I don't even want to be associated with it. Ferrets like crappy foods for two basic reasons: olfactory imprinting and because of the sugar and content. Ferrets olfactory imprint on foods when very young, and they carry those dietary preferences for the rest of their lives. They will always prefer those foods. Kibbles, even good ones, have a large amount of carbohydrate added (Natural Gold is an exception). Because of the finely ground nature of the ingredients, as well as the high temperatures and pressures of extrusion processing, the carbs have an unusually high degree of digestibility. If digested, these carbs are processed down to sugar. Humans and ferrets become addicted to sugar, partially because of blood sugar fluctuations on such a diet. I really LOVE beans. I can t get enough of them, honest. A bowl of hot navy beans is like heaven to me. But just because I like them, it doesn't mean they are good for me. I've lost the terminal part of my small bowel, my caecum and appendix, my ascending colon, and about half of my transverse colon. When I eat beans, it is not only painful to others, but also extremely painful to me. Just because a ferret likes a food and wants a food, it doesn't mean an owner has to give it to them. You can make the decision to give them a healthier diet. Strong words from a guy that refuses to stop eating beans. Bob C Communication? [log in to unmask] Questions? [log in to unmask] [Posted in FML issue 4567]