Susie Lee said: >Any responsible "duck soup" creator and administerer will...check >out their ingredients...with their veterinarian and/or animal care >professional first. Excellent! You do more than most people in this regard and I commend you. Outside of wishing you defined "animal care professional" (which could be anyone), I have a single comment, not addressed to you, but the general FML. Most vets, like most human doctors, know diddily-squat about nutrition. The good ones have learned about nutrition on their own or as part of an advanced study program, some rely on what others have reported or the few classes taken as a vet student, but many seem to believe the word-for-word claims of pet food salesmen or brochures. Few ferret vets have even opened Fox's book on ferrets (2nd edition) to read what is perhaps the most easily obtained article on ferret nutrition, but even then, those nutrient requirements were determined by defining "complete nutrition" as being able to get a jill through pregnancy and kit weaning. It actually does not address long-term nutritional issues, nor does it address issues of nutrition during illness or any other state that might cause a ferret to reside in a nursing cage. I know for a fact that malnourished female ferrets can successfully reproduce; maternal effect theory, the influence of the nutritional environment on the size of the mother and resulting offspring, predicts malnourished mothers will birth smaller offspring in smaller numbers, and both offspring and mother will have shorter lives. Even moderate malnutrition at a population level doesn't stop somewhat successful reproduction. Remember, the term "complete nutrition" was given to cat dietary formulations that resulted in untold numbers of cats losing their vision and developing heart problems! Most of these cats, doomed to an early death and a life of misery because of diet, were able to reproduce. Susie Lee said: >This should be done with each consideration of change in ingredients. >If an effect on an animal is not known by the animal care professional, >then that unknown-effect ingredient is not used nor administered. BRAVO! (with the same caveat as above) Susie Lee said: >As to lengthening the lives of ferrets...we DO have records and >documentation...which shows quite a few having lived up to between >11 years and 13 years and two months of age in comfort.... I am not trying to be argumentative, but while these records are commendable and far in excess of what most ferret owners or shelters attempt to maintain and you should be congratulated for them, they do not prove duck soup is effective because of the number of variables left uncontrolled. Here is an example of what I mean: You have a tank filled with a dozen gasses. You toss in a lighted match, and the gasses in the tank ignite and burn. Does any one of these known factors provide proof to what is happening when the vapors ignite and burn? Can you prove oxygen was reacting with any one gas? Can you even say pure oxygen is one of the gasses and wasn't present as part of another reactive molecule? You can't because you don't have enough information. Neither can you say keeping the records as described proves the duck soup is effective. When you are trying to determine if a duck soup is effective, you have to control for such variables that also have a impact on longevity, such as nursing care, how many times the ferret sees a vet (and how effective those visits are), the types, length, and strength of disease, the genetics of the ferret, caging conditions, and dozens more! Most diseases progress along a predictable path, a so-called disease curve, and where a ferret is on that curve impacts the effectiveness of nutritional supplements. What you CAN tell from such data is the overall effectiveness of the care given to the ferrets, which in this case appears outstanding. You consult vets regarding supplements and feeding, you keep outstanding records, and it is patently obvious you apply the same type of nursing care to your ferrets has you learned to apply to humans. With all that said, it doesn't prove the duck soup formulation you are serving has ANY degree of effectiveness. It is a single uncontrolled variable in what appears to be an outstanding quality and quantity of nursing care. Susie Lee said: >...Give your soup to your frrets as They need it, on the advice of your >vet(s) who are familiar with their condition. That is exactly what people should do -- thank you for emphasizing it for me. When I die and come back as a ferret, I want you to nurse me back to health. ;-) Bob C [Posted in FML issue 4408]