>I think both you and Sukie would feel different if it was one of your >ferrets. Sukie fought so hard to save that last little ferret. She >could tell me till she was blue in the face that it was alright... [etc] True enough, but recall that this was NOT what I said. (I know you know, but I also know that poor readers get confused often enough reading any mailing list.) What I said was: 1. We do NOT know the entire story, just one side. Did you notice that what Sandi mentioned as being used to euthanize is not something which is used to actually euthanize? It is one of the safest anesthetics. Perhaps what was encountered was not euthanizia but a sudden reaction to anesthesia. Those are rare but they happen. The ferret has also been mentioned as having had severe and long standing adrenal disease. Do any of us know if the ferret might have had a sudden problem arise related to this and not survived an emergency corrective procedure, perhaps even because the sudden emergency was simply too serious to survive? Nope. We don't. We have one side of the story so we have no idea if such a thing happened or didn't. We need both sides if we are to understand. 2. That confusion occurred. Even if the above is true this is also true. Do we know why the confusion happened? Were records, or labels, or even placement messed up? Was the vet working horrible hours providing charity care and have that combined with one of the above. Heck, I know that in a rush we once brought a ferret to a hospital in a carrier which was labeled with the details of a different ferret (in masking tape on top) but fortunately, we provided enough details that they spotted it beforehand just about the same time as we did. We'd brought the right ferret, actually. It's just that we'd been in a rush and hadn't realized which ferret the carrier was still marked for from a recent surgery. 3. That the research is addressing a question which shows up here often -- sometimes several times a month, so don't automatically throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, like you, I do prefer it that someone just admits it when the person has screwed up on a judgment call, and like you I know that in some emergencies there is no judgment call which will work but sometimes the only way to know is to try. Like the rest of us I just don't know what happened. I am sure it must be frustrating to Sandi on top of her sadness to not know or understand what occurred, but until we know the only portion on which we can make a judgment is that there sure as heck should be better communications between the two -- with calm talking and lot a listening on each side. I do worry when I read posters describing themselves in "me against the world" terms such as Sandi's >However, you are absolutely right that there is a lot more to this than >was posted. I didn't previously mention how the entire WFA board of >directors are involved in this. They are running an illegal veterinary >facility at their shelter especially *IF* in looking back through the archives i find that the same person has taken that sort of stance over and over again in relation to multiple sets of people. It seems to me personally *IF* I see that that repeated pattern that perhaps it is the "me against the world" person who has accidently caused at least some of the types of confusion and trouble but fails to take responsibility. In such a situation -- when it actually happens -- there is probably a lot a grief which everyone could be spared if the poster just faced up to having made a mistake. Mistakes are to for learning but the only way to do that is to acknowledge them. I guess it is possible that a certain person could have terrible things done by many conspiring groups of people happen to him or her, but when I read that entire groups of people are implicated in a conspiracy (which is how Sandi's post today reads I do just what I'll do after after I finish reading today's FML: I CHECK. I bring up the FML Archives and I search for past posts from the person to find out *IF* there have been past allegations of conspiracies made by the same poster and against whom. I think I'll try my first search using "Best Little Rabbit, Rodent & Ferret House". My take on how to personally weigh things will be influenced by what I find in past post behavior. The FML Archives can be found in the header of any day's FML or by going to http://listserv.cuny.edu/archives/ferret-search.html . Go look in the archives for yourselves before deciding, and even then remember that you don't have the full picture anymore than any of the rest of us do, so just think of it as a jigsaw whose picture remains unrecognizable -- allowing only guesses for now. I DO have to say this. Sandi's comment: >Cathy Johnson-Delaney's "day job" is doing research on Monkeys at SNBL >USA. She is used to killing on a daily basis makes no sense at al: NONE. Remember that before the tropical disease i got in Suriname caused me to have to leave school my plans were to go into primatology and that I worked with research primates for 5 years. During that time there were 4 deaths total and 3 were not in the least related to to the research or care. In five years total only one death was *possibly* at all avoidable and that death happened due to problem during a dominance challenge attack by the monkey who died. Researchers typically go out of their ways to NOT have primates die. Besides the emotional closeness which develops, they are valuable, and the relationships needed for safe interactions take time to establish. The chimps and other animals i worked with -- the chimps most closely -- only had types of research done on them which were also done on us humans and we had to establish a trusting relationship first which took an extended time to do. Sandi's monkey comment makes no sense at all: ZIP, ZILCH, NADA, NONE. [Posted in FML issue 4331]