[Posts combined. BIG] [pt. 7] These will be my last posts on this question; the point that it is dangerous and unethical to use untested herbal medicines on ferrets has been largely missed, and the thread is rapidly deteriorating into some sort of "Bob dislikes herbals" and "Mary has to defend them" discourse. This is a ferret discussion list, and while much of the comments that are geared to human applications have value applied to the ferret world, many still miss the mark. Much of this debate is a nothing more than a conflict between personal belief systems. I take great pride in my skepticism, and others are obviously happy with accepting statements without serious question. Both sides are needed in the world, and I can find zero fault in either world view. A secondary problem is the inability of the herbal medicine community to accept (or admit) certain irrefutable facts, such as administering phytochemicals within an herbal concoction is synonymous with administering drugs within a medical preparation. The reluctance to make a public confirmation is, in part, legalistic -- the herbal community only exists as it does as long as the FDA (and other organs) continues to view their activities as benign. Thus, herbalists must insist herbal medicines are neither drugs nor medicines, but are rather "supplements" or "remedies." Nonetheless, the INTENT behind the dispensation of herbal remedies takes their use synonymous with administering mainstream medicines. The entire herbal community may protest, but the reactive chemicals found in herbal remedies are DRUGS in both intent and practice. The FDA (and other regulatory organs) recognize this, which is one reason why they watch the herbal community so closely, and why they are rethinking their definitions of "supplements" and "drugs," and why there is a movement afoot to regulate the herbal industry. I don't like the use of herbal remedies in ferrets, for three very specific reasons. First, ferrets are very small animals, having a rapid metabolism and a somewhat different physiology than humans. TINY differences in phytochemical availability due to minute variations in the deposition of the reactive chemicals within the plant of origin are potentially dangerous. Most phytochemicals are an evolutionary response by the plant to reduce predation by herbivores, and are actually potent toxins. Their use is akin to the use of chemotherapy agents to combat cancer; if the dosage is correct, then the cancers cells are killed, and normal cells survive the poisoning. The problem is, ferrets are TINY, and the smaller the animal, the smaller the difference between a safe dose and a dangerous one. While several people have pointed out some herbal remedies have established safe use in ferrets, the sad fact is MOST do not. A slight misunderstanding of safe dosage in conjunction with the natural variation of phytochemical levels within the plant of origin, makes EVERY dose given to a ferret an exercise in animal experimentation. The second point is herbal remedies are available to all, without regulation, and regardless of experience or education. Admittedly, an herbalist MAY be conscientious in how their herbal drugs are prepared, but who is to say John or Jane Doe, picking up a box from the herbal supplement isle found in larger supermarkets, have as deep an understanding? They see discussions that emphasis the safety of the herbal drugs, so don't typically think of them as dangerous. Ephedra is a prime example, where 81 people have died from a dangerous and somewhat addictive drug. Have four people died from Viagra? All that means to me is that the relative risk of dying from Ephedra is 20 times HIGHER than from Viagra! Herbalists, in general, overly emphasize the safety of herbal remedies in part because they are in denial that the reactive chemical agent found in their herbs are the SAME DRUGS as found in mainstream medicines. Objections that herbs contain many other chemicals are obtuse. People take specific herbal remedies to get the specific reactive chemical agent found in them -- they want the drug. The problem is they see herbals as safe, when they are as dangerous as ANY mainstream medicine when the doses are equalized. The third point is because herbals are legally defined as supplements rather than pharmaceuticals, their quality and purity are not closely regulated. Admittedly, some herbalists lovingly grow their own, but most people read about a herbal remedy, then bounce down to their supermarket and buy whatever they can find. Some of these herbal products are of extremely low quality, others have been contaminated with heavy metals, and still others are so variable in the concentration of their active ingredient that three different boxes will yield three different doses. One major problem few herbalists are loath to admit is the problem of metal contamination, of which I will mention only three: lead, selenium, and zinc. Lead is a COMMON contaminant when the herbs come from countries where leaded gasoline is commonly used (several herbal products have been recalled for this very problem). Even something as innocuous as tamarind fruit has been recently found heavily contaminated with lead. Selenium, as those living in the Central Valley of California have discovered, is a common contaminant secondary to unregulated agricultural practices. Both lead and selenium tend to be accumulative poisons--the longer you use them, the more damage occurs. It doesn't matter that some herbalists may grow their own pure herbs; the truth is, most people who try out herbal drugs use untested, unregulated, unknown products with a dubious history. They don't know that they are getting, how much, or what quality. And THAT is the bottom line. [pt. 8] There is a final point that needs to be made, albeit not one of my objections to herbals. A lot of talk has been made about references and credentials. I am not going to get into an inane pissing argument about who has studied what. As for references, rather than listing a lot of books few people will have an opportunity to find (or read), I will supply a single webpage. I suggest people visit the site, read what they are interested in, evaulate the references, and then make up their own minds. Visit: http://www.quackwatch.org/ and: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/paraherbalism.html As for the FML readership, I never had any intention for this to become an herbal debunking series. Some herbals are very good, most have little or no value, and about as many that are good are absolutely dangerous. However, THAT statement only applies to human herbal medicine, NOT to ferrets. Currently, veterinarians hardly understand ferret physiology and biochemistry as it is. I feel the use of untested, unproven, and unpurified drugs administered via herbal concoctions is synonymous with unethical and immoral animal experimentation. If drug labs are not allowed to experiment on animals without the prior approval of a governing board, why should those using herbal medicines be given a blind eye? Bob C [Posted in FML issue 3934]