I think that some people missed that well-experienced individuals who HAVE had first-hand interactions and assessments of the breeders' lines under recent discussion have mentioned problems noted -- often with more than one mentioning the same things here and on other lists, and that there have also been comments by some who saw what living conditions were, and others by some who read the past diet. These are first-hand for PAST situations, not hear-say or rumor, nor are they necessarily present situations, let alone future ones. I think everyone understands that. What is being expressed in pretty much everything I've read here and elsewhere is a desire that certain documented or attested-to old and bad practises by anyone already are or will be ended, that the lines which have medical problems such as malformations be assessed careful and culled from breeding when that is prudent for ferret health and happiness. Those are reasonable sentiments in which ferret health is placed first, and also pose a learning experience for everyone, which further helps ferrets. On the subject of another farm breeder: was glad to see that the list of problems the USDA found at MF was corrected by '99 and remained corrected in 2000. Now, if we can get their shipping dept. to consistently be more careful during certain times of the year, urge the use of vets rather than techs for sterilizations, etc. ... Would LOVE to eventually be able to see the revelation of these sorts of current USDA inspection reports for ALL the farms! Wouldn't you? Wouldn't it be GREAT to separate out personal grudges and rumors from real facts, and compare the entire lot of them on a level footing?!? Wouldn't it be dream to have none of the farms ship before 8 weeks, and to have adoptive homes for all retired breeders from any of the farms? ( Wouldn't it would also be marvelous to have shelters find that loving people are coming forward for the needy ferrets there; no ferret is quite as loving and appreciative forever as a shelter one who has been rescued.) Of course, as you know, I am never happy about wire mesh flooring anywhere, but all the farms use it and that's not likely to change at any of them; at least the USDA is being careful to enforce reductions in the size of the mesh, so that's a good thing. Thanks, Leigh for making http://members.aol.com/lwhit16066/index.html available! Alicia wrote: >as I read the latrest posts on jaw & facila deformities-- then read >the genetic suspicions please please folks-- During the developmental >process -- malnutrition serves to be the foremost danger in bone , jaw & >tooth development. This WAS the problem with bad food years ago for Path >Valley, this IS the problem with many recent intakes at the shelter here-- >( twisty little noses, overbites-- So TRUE! There are also diseases and other environmental factors that affect development, so could be any of the grouping, which is why this needs to be known in relation to these malformations, the rib-cage malformations, and any others that crop up at any breeder's place no matter what the size. HEALTH, LONGEVITY, AND PERSONALITY FIRST! Lisette, your Old Man poem was good! [Posted in FML issue 3213]