As you know, I asked about things that can cause rib cage malformations. Leigh found a study on cats in which broad rather than deep rig cages resulted from too much taurine in diets. It's not known what may have caused the reported rib malformations in the ferrets under discussion, but this has to be considered as a possibility and more info gathered, if more can be found by anyone. For those who don't know, the rib cage serves many functions. It provides a base for muscles that affect breathing, it provides a shield over important organs such as the heart, lungs, part of liver, etc. The shape needs to be suited to the typical mode of transport, other factors of lifestyle, lung expansion shape, etc., and it needs to provide the right amount of room in the right shape for the organs it protects -- not too much and not too little and not too warped, plus preferably free of things like nodules (which can be caused in humans by multiple problems including tuberculosis at an early age). You have already noticed that we bipedal humans have a broad ribcage (larger side to side). Unlike us but like the other primates and four footed animals in general, ferrets typically have a deep ribcage -- wider front to back along the saggital plane. This seems to be optimally functional for four footed animals, or at least functional enough that it is prevalent which tends to be a pretty good sign. Alterations to that shape, therefore, might also have health consequences; in addition whatever caused such alterations might have health consequences. Assessing how bad the problem is, what it's characteristics are, and finding the cause of an alteration in the thoracic cradle -- to allow moving responsibly from there -- is therefore in the best interests of the ferrets involved. It is my hope that this discussion will lead to all breeders thinking carefully about the important aspects of breeding. It goes well beyond the Coles or those from whom they have purchased in that regard. The discussion among so many here has already been about: living conditions, vet care, diet, careful records and lack of breeding of genetic alterations that carry handicaps or reduced health, personality, and multiple other exceedingly important factors that every breeder needs to take into account in order to help ferrets rather than hurting them. It could be one of the more useful discussions here in recent months, along with the ADV funding one, and health posts for helping ferrets in the long run, and that is wonderful! I think that with information such as that which has been presented here being taken into account that breeders in general could improve and certainly those relatively new to breeding might avoid pitfalls beforehand which is a LOT easier than making corrections. What I have seen here during this discussion (and in some others) in relation to multiple large farms, new or old, is not "defense" or "bashing" but an attempt to attain some BALANCE, with good, average, and bad acknowledged for any, as well as known improvements needed mentioned for any. That is a fair and good thing to do; it's the most productive, the most logical, the most effective for helping ferrets, and the most moral, at least from my viewpoint. Others may and very likely will differ. And -- a disclaimer -- as most already know Steve and I don't breed and never have bred (We adopt hard-luck cases usually now, but have bought from multiple breeders in the past.), nor are we affiliated with any place that makes any types of income from ferrets or ferret products, nor do we make any type of income from such places or from ferrets. We are just long-time ferret people (around 18 years) and long-time FML members who have seen a lot of things through the years. I'm glad that Dee brought up angoras. Have seen NOTHING on them in relation to health, to life-spans, personality, and so on, though that information IS important info. Does it exist? Has anyone tried to get it, yet, before they also wind up too widely bred as it appears that WS ferrets likely prematurely were. Anyone have data or comments, or both on this variant? Data first, wide breeding later IF safe! >>Let's remember that the further from the gene pool, you often see >>problems >Sorry - I don't understand. Are you saying that diversity is when you see Apparently either some sort of typo, or rushed wording, or unfamiliarity with genetics or with breeding on the part of the original poster. (Any would work.). I think perhaps what was meant was that multiple poorly selected alterations might move a creature into a realm which is anatomically or physiologically so different from the original animals that those choice of human-imposed selection (breeding) might themselves cause handicaps and other problems due to eliminating too much of what works well. That may not be what was meant but it was how I read and makes sense that way. The absolutely most beautiful ferret while being held that I have ever seen was Ruffle. She took people's breath away. They'd see her and even vets and show people would exclaim, "That's the most gorgeous ferret I have ever seen!" before they even registered what they were saying. Her face was infantile and looked like a malamute puppy. Her fur was denser than any I have encountered -- perhaps more than twice as dense as the next best. It was also a few inches long and baby fine. Beautiful, beautiful ferret in face and fur. Then we'd put her down and people would see that her legs were short, her trunk broad, her posture and walk wrong. When they got to interact with her they noticed that she was almost as dense as a post intellectually. We were asked to bring her with us to shows so that people could see some of her handicaps, but never did. It would have been too stressful for her and that is what mattered. In fact, we've never taken any ferrets to shows; thought about it before ECE appeared on the scene then changed our minds and never changed back. Ruffle had multiple handicaps, she had multiple soft tissue deformities, she had multiple boney tissue deformities, she had arthritis from an early age, she died too young from her medical problems. She was bred in a quest for a fancy. Beauty does not equate to health. Yes, we have fancies here, too, and and we love them, but we are more careful with their vet care, and with other fancies besides Ruffle we have seen that we should be more careful. It just makes sense till more is known. [Posted in FML issue 3211]