S. wrote: >I am sure the human members of the FML who are impaired (and I really >don't like that word, either) in some manner do not consider themselves >defective >or broken or even "not normal." Don't be so sure. Steve and I both have crummy eyes that are getting worse, and I have some neuromuscular damage that makes some things difficult or impossible; we are used to them and we do know that they are at times an impairment. Hey, there's room for all variations... It is possible to think of one's self as having defective PARTS; which is a far cry from being defective as an individual. Steve and I have some defective parts, some of which are progressively so. That lets us use our brains (Defective status on brains' score is even more a matter of personal perception so if you want to insult our's do so privately and only to yourselves.) inventively to find solutions -- a reasonable and at times very interesting thing to do. In fact, sometimes it works out better than before. Sometimes the problem itself has some fun features, as well as it's bad ones; there are neat visual variations to explore, for instance. An individual remains more than a sum of the parts. Oh, and "normal" means only "average" to a number of us and we like to think of ourselves as quirkier than that so absolutely hate the term "normal" just as we do the term "boring". Like I said, variations... Room for all here. *****What I want to know is WHY a discussion which was about breeders being careful to breed for the best health of the animal, and was in relation to specific known genetic variations which can make an animal's life harder (some having variable expression across generations) DEVOLVED into what it has? This began as a discussion of finding ways to help ferrets. Also, why the heck does this so often happen with so many topics with which people could work toward making a positive change for the ferrets' well-being? Liked the posts in which people got constructive and discussed ways to train the more rambunctious of the ferrets who also happen to be deaf (given that both subsets can and sometimes do overlap), as well as the ones which went into ways to find a lost deaf one who can't hear calls, and other constructive tips which help ferrets. Some here need to recall that deafness does not necessarily also mean docility is present and that daring is not, also that the FML members represent those people with a high-level of awareness and concern whereas the typical purchaser of a ferret may be less equipped in knowledge and patience for dealing with deafness. Also, thank you to those who pointed out that we are NOT discussing the wide range of reasons for people to become deaf, but are discussing one specific known genetic cause with variable expression which is present in ferrets and which has affected an increasing number of ferrets due to people breeding for the fancy fur patterns which go along with it rather than breeding for functional hearing. The discussion was whether these fancy looks were more important than hearing is. Let's get constructive again, PLEASE! I think that the semantic aspects are pretty well resolved here if one looks at the PARTS having defects or impairments or ..., whereas the INDIVIDUAL is certainly intelligent enough to remain more than a series of parts so the individual is not defective. Please, let's get past this terminology thing now that it's discussed so fully --be careful -- and the other bog-downs, and be constructive for the ferrets again, please, please, please!***** Carla, I am interested in your comments that the ferrets with Waardenburg Syndrome who have shared your life died younger than the others have. We also ran into that life span reduction, though not as dramatically as you did. I recall a brief discussion in which a geneticist alluded (sadly without giving specifics) to the possibility of there being much worse things beyond deafness on rare occasion seen with the syndrome but that these were on the far end of the scale for expression. (Then again, he was talking about humans which don't have Waardenburg as often as ferrets do.) For those who don't know, Waardenburg has variable expression. This means that some features may or may not be present or may be partly present in any given individual, so a gorgeous and fully hearing parent may have completely deaf young and visa versa. With you seeing so many individuals who had shortened lifespans with Waardenburg I am very curious if you have encountered a mathematical anomaly or if the breeding of two W.S. parents together might be one of the things which can lead to reduced life-spans. If so, then it is even more important that this discussion take place. For those who are interested but don't know the fancy patterns discussed in relation to this allele can include (Remember variable expression.) dark eyed whites, blazes, pandas, those with color-deplete eyes, those with widely spaced eyes, etc. So, those with ferrets that had Waardenburg PHYSICAL FEATURES and since passed away: 1. age at death 2. other health problems noted 3. were these individuals deaf or not Post it publicly HERE on the FML, please. It won't resolve anything, of course, but may help give DIRECTION if enough post regardless of what was seen. Learning about this could HELP FERRETS! [Posted in FML issue 3118]