I do not want to take up everyone's time here on this list arguing about Judith Moon,and I apologize for the length and disruption. However, after reading that she sold a deaf panda hob purposely for breeding, I feel it is important to post this, for anyone who is considering breeding. I cannot do it on her Ferret breeders list where it is more appropriate. What she means by a flame free breeding list is that anyone who's opinion differs from hers or any one who tells her that "different" ideas are wrong and unethical is kicked off. Since both the Killians and myself have given valid reasons why she should not be breeding and selling deaf ferrets, we are now off the list. If you are interesting in breeding There are others on that list who are more qualified to steer you in the right direction. I do not know many vets who would condone breeding an animal two heats in a row. Fetuses and newborns are basically parasites they drain the mother of calcium and energy and the body needs to rebuild. She may be healthy now but what repercussions will this have in the long run? All because you do not have any kits to sell??? It is detrimental to the health of the animal and that is not what veterinarians are about. You cannot "improve" Waardenburg's syndrome, it is what it is. There is nothing wrong with trying to breed out a genetic fault. However, you must be committed to being responsible to neuter and keep any animals that are genetically defective if you want to undertake such a project. They should not be solicited on every ferret list nor sold for a higher price because of their color. They have a genetic defect. Would you pay $50,000 for a brand new dented Mercedes? It can still function but you are not getting the perfection you paid for. When you are selling them at 7 wks. there is not way you can tell what other problems they might develop. Also there is a reason why you should NEVER breed a deaf jill. For those who do not breed, you may not know that a jill judges the health of her litter by the sound of their cries. There is a VERY good chance that a deaf jill will kill her litter because she cannot hear them. There is no guarantee that they will nor that they won't but WHY take that chance. Judith has stated that she finds loving homes for these ferrets, not that she was selling them as breeders and encouraging others to do so. Just because ferrets live in a house, does not mean they do not have to have all their senses to survive, the only thing that changes is the nature of the predator. You can still be eaten by the vacuum cleaner, the family dog, squashed by being stepped on when they do not hear you coming. Walk into a fan you don't fear because you can't hear it.............. Or ferrets that are turned over to shelters after being abused because they are labeled "vicious" and/or "stupid" because they are deaf. There are many every day dangers that you must protect them from. I know I currently have 6 deaf ferrets. Is that how any ethical breeder wants their kits to wind up? Judith stated on another list that people often do not listen to what she tells them. The Furo book on reproduction by Fara Shimbo states" The greatest crime one can commit against a domestic species is indiscriminate breeding". Pat Stauffer Weasels http://pages.prodigy.net/staufferp/ [Posted in FML issue 3112]