Bob said, >In the majority of cases, these diseases become a problem when the ferret >is between 4 and 6 years of age and invariably are the ultimate cause of >death. Sukie said, >Bob, I have to disagree with the "invariably" part. So, the blond lady from Jersey (whom I have STILL never met) wants a fight, eh? Come on, I'll fight you! Put 'em up! Owwwww! No fair going for the belly! Steve! Help me! Steve! Steve! .....Coward.... Actually, my statement was poorly worded and I'm glad you pointed out the misunderstanding it might cause. It is clearly to imprecise to be of much value, especially as a general statement. I should have done better. Sorry. I have two comments. First, if a person has Aids and dies of pneumonia, what is the cause of death? Aids or pneumonia? The way I see it, pneumonia is the proximal cause of death, and Aids the causative agent of death. I know it is a nitpicking way of looking at things, sort of like saying it wasn't the criminal who killed the storekeeper, but the bullet that pierced their heart. Clearly, a person without Aids is at low risk of dying of certain pneumonias, so it is a fair characterization to say the person contracted the pneumonia and died BECAUSE of their Aids infection. In the Aids example, the person DIED of pneumonia, not Aids, but the pneumonia was only able to kill because of the physiological conditions caused by the other disease. This is a common occurrence in age-related diseases where one battery of diseases make the ferret vulnerable to many others, which are often terminal. Not always, of course, but often. My original statement was intended to be viewed in this light; that diseases of old age are the ultimate (or the causative) agent of death, but not necessarily the proximal cause of death. My original wording was poorly done and left room for misunderstanding. The other comment is concerns the diseases I mentioned, cancers of the pancreas and adrenals. These are by no means the ONLY disease of age in ferrets, just some examples I mentioned to show the point. Old age diseases are about the same form species to species; in other words, older individuals of ALL mammalian species tend to die from cancers, cardiovascular disease, kidney and liver problems, etc. The diseases are the same, but the RELATIVE FREQUENCY of those diseases vary from species to species. So, humans might have a higher incidence of cardiovascular disease compared to ferrets, who might have a higher incidence of endocrine disorders compared to goats. The evolutionary history of the particular species, as reflected in their genetics, is one major factor in the determination of relative frequency of old age diseases. Another major factor is the lifetime accumulated environmental risk each individual has going against them. That is what I think is going on with ferrets and certain cancers. I think the evolutionary history of the ferret has left them vulnerable to specific types of cancers, but it is the environmental risks associated with the ferret that ultimately cause the outbreak of disease (in the MAJORITY of cases). I think, like with humans and all other mammals, these problems are exacerbated by age. So, the ultimate reason older ferrets may contract certain cancers may have little to do with who bred it, and more to do with a genetic disposition, lifetime environmental risk, and simple old age. This combination of factors is extremely complex, rendering prediction of disease nearly impossible. One ferret might have the genetic predisposition, but never experience significant environmental risk. Another ferret may have the environmental risks, but is not genetically at risk. This is the reason why certain diseases show up more in older ferrets; the older they are, the more lifetime environmental risk they accumulate. Throw the dice long enough and you will eventually crap out. Without knowing the exact risks accumulated, the exact genetic predisposition, and the age of the ferret, you will never be able to accurately predict disease risk and longevity. So we end up using qualifying statements, like "many," "the majority," "in general," and my personal favorite, "a significant number." Weasel words to be sure, but they illustrate the difficulty of predicting biological outcomes. The bottom line is that ferrets live in bodies that were genetically engineered (via evolutionary processes) to last two to three years, and they are living, as pets, double, triple, even quadruple that length of time. Interestingly enough, the same is true for humans, and, proportionally, by about the same amount. It is no wonder that similar types of diseases; i.e. cancers, heart disease, etc., kill both species as we get past our engineered specs. And while the specific nature of those diseases are essentially due to historical accident (the combination of genetics and environment), the fact is, the older you get, the more common they become. And THAT is what I meant when I said diseases of old age are "invariably are the ultimate cause of death." Even if they aren't typically seen as the proximal cause of death, they often influence the morbidity of other diseases, turning typically survivable diseases into fatal ones. Sorry for my lack of precision in the earlier post. I'll do better when the swirling colors fade. Bob C and 16 MO' Imprecise Imps [Posted in FML issue 2969]