[Moderator's note: Suki has a brief response to this in the following
post. I don't think there's any point in continuing this particular
Kim vs Suki debate. The rebuttal and a response has already been given
and now nothing more than trying to "prove" what Suki meant. BIG]

I thought the FML was for people to exchange views, experiences, ideas,
and present information. Does everyone have to agree on every level?
Why do people get trounce for posting their views? There was no
"scolding" (as Suki claims) - just observations that Salmonella is
present in more things than JUST raw meat items yet her warning was
directed at only Raw feeders!

Suki's subject line was a directive: "Subject: if in Denmark: avoid
RAW flesh foods (meat, poultry, etc) for now"

I posted links to warnings regarding salmonella outbreaks in other
parts of the world as well as occurring in various food items BESIDES
raw meats. As Suki said in her reply,
>I heard from people in Denmark itself that the advice I gave (which
>was from news stories and the CDC info site) was exactly what their
>own media, public health officials, physicians and vets are telling
>them to do now;
if Denmark's media have already presented the risk, Suki's post leads
me to think there were more connotations than merely a warning - it
was intended to strike fear among those of us that choose to feed raw
foods.

Suki's own post notes that:
>Danish health officials fear more than 4,000 people may be infected
>with salmonella, 330 cases have been confirmed and about a quarter of
>those people have been hospitalized"
(meaning 82 people of the 4,000 have been hospitalized, it's likely
those hospitalized fall within the parameters of people most likely to
be affected by Salmonella infection
- infirm, very young & elderly. Which again leads me to believe that
Suki's underlying "need" to post this "mere warning" was to alarm and
scare raw feeders.

Ferrants who have or are contemplating undertaking the decision to
offer their ferrets better health options by feeding raw and whole
prey, have already become well versed in bacterial as well as fungal
contamination issues. So again, this "mere warning" posted by Suki was
taken, as I stated, as a jibe towards raw feeding. Especially when
she closes with this statement:
>If you know people in Denmark who are currently feeding raw foods,
>please, make sure they know about this outbreak and how to avoid
>infection.

Even Suki's post acknowledges there are"roughly 2,500 kinds of
salmonella" and that "there are actually some types of food poisoning
which are usually more serious for ferrets". However a healthy immune
system IS able to fend off these attacks, and a healthy immune system
stems from an optimum diet!

An optimum diet for ferrets IS whole prey and raw meaty bone items!
This is proved by ferrets in the wild and dissections proving that
ferrets CANNOT digest plant products. Being as there have been
absolutely ZERO studies done to PROVE exactly what nutrients a ferret
requires, there is no way that that kibbles could ever offer your
ferret optimum health, regardless of the Manufacturers misleading
claims!

Suki's second post links to exchanges on the FHL regarding an
apparently bacterial contaminated package of frozen prekilled mice I
purchased. The ferrets affected by the ROD bacterium (not Salmonella)
were elderly (over 5 years) and a yearling who turned out to have
Juvenile Lymphosarcoma (which was the actual cause of her death), and
which the vet said was likely a disease she was born with. The elderly
ferrets responded to the antibiotics administered. This tragic incident
bolstered my resolve to raise my own feeder mice so I know EXACTLY what
goes into the prey as well as in what conditions they get stored.

A ferret that Suki drags into this discussion (for reasons unknown):
>and she also has experienced what was treat as insulinoma in an
>adopted adult ferret, though that ferret lived only a very short while
>(2months?)
was my Fozzy, who was 6 1/2 years old when he died. No, Fozzy did not
suffer from insulinoma for 2 months- he suffered from it probably the
majority of his much too short 6 1/2 year life span! Fozzy was adopted
as a 5 year old ferret. What would a necropsy have proved? Insulinoma
and cancer of the Pancreas are NOT separate diseases. Islet tumors are
what cause the insulinoma, islet tumors are likely caused from a high
carb diet! Fozzy showed all the symptoms of advanced insulinoma and
treatment for insulinoma, recognized as late in life as Fozzy's,
NEVER offers a good prognosis! BECAUSE of Fozzy's demise is why I am
DETERMINED to offer optimum health from a natural diet! Knowing now
that Fozzy was beset with a horrible disease tied to the kibble diet
he'd been forced to consume only bolsters my determination to offer
ferrets a diet they were designed to
eat!http://media.putfile.com/Mouse-Scat-Dissection-070408

Fozzy's last year and a half of life was fully enriched:
http://media.putfile.com/Jaws-in-the-Tunnel ; when adopted he was so
fat and lethargic he couldn't even fit in the tunnel, much less run
through it! His life was likely extended BECAUSE he chose to add whole
prey and raw meaty items to his diet!
http://media.putfile.com/Fozzy-Kills-3
Yes, I still offered him kibble, but had to at that point. His cage
mate, Faylene is STILL with me and is thriving on a natural diet!
http://media.putfile.com/Faylene-frolics-outside , Faylene will be 7
soon. The raw diet has completely reversed the tartar accumulation on
her teeth, which creates all sorts of problems orally and has been
linked to other systemic health issues.

Kibble causes more issues for ferrets than just "dental wear" and
"perhaps a carbohydrate contribution to the future formation of
insulinoma", current findings by hands on experience, field studies and
veterinarian records are proving that. Suki may have many more years of
ferret keeping than I, but that does NOT mean her way is the only way,
nor that it is superior to a natural diet. Doing something the same way
year after year does in no way make it the correct way.

I am NOT a "fragmentary" reader of the FML, nor have I made any
assumptions. It is one thing to post a heads up warning and quite
another to make repeated directives towards Natural feeders! My own
family had pet casualties caused by the China Melamine horror so I
DO remain abreast of contamination issues and recalls.

Until ferret nutrient requirement studies are done I will look to
mother nature for clues as to what are ideal nutrient sources for my
ferret. Ferrets are NOT herbivores, nor are they omnivores - they are
obligate carnivores; therefore as a conscientious ferret owner I need
to offer my ferret appropriate natural sources of nutrients - these
sources do NOT include cooked grains, seeds or plants or their products
and it does not include cooked meats!

Regards,
Kim

[Posted in FML 6024]