[information on submissions from Woodbridge]
>Mr. Killian could be one of them, but numbers like "lots" are VERY hard
>to put into a survey and are usually discarded.  I could NOT find a survey
>with Killian's name attached to it, so I never received a survey unless it
>was one of the above (I did not always keep paper copies of surveys
>returned by e-mail).  I have absolutely NOTHING regarding Mr. McKay.
 
My wife and I phoned in the results as we could not get the web page to
accept them.  We asked her if the information given was adequate and said
that we would give her any more details that were needed such as
manufacturing lot numbers.  In this same conversation on our speaker phone
we discussed the situation in South Carolina.  We gave specific numbers in
the conversation not "lots".  We specifically said that approximately 2000
were given by Mr. McKay and his daughter.  I'd have to search to find the
paper we had recorded all of this information on to recall the precise
numbers.  They included FROMM-D, GALAXY-D and Fervac-D by us with exact
number of each.  But only Fervac by the McKays.  I'm sorry that you did not
record the information when we gave it to you.  Especially since it was a
large enough sample to significantly alter the results.
 
>their mailing list NAFA, FURO and AFA leaders and board members.  If these
>organizations choose NOT to run the survey in their publications, then I
>have no control of that.  PLUS - to reach well over 1600 people (at the
>time I believe that was the circulation) - I put the survey on the FML.
>That way - EVERYONE was given an option to participate, reactions or not.
 
Sending a survey to a member of a particular group does not constitute a
request for that group as a body to participate in the survey.  There have
been known squabbles between all of these groups.  I try to stay out of
them.  Unfortunately it is very true that in questions like this most of the
respondants would be those motivated.  In this case those with reactions.
Since it is very likely that Fervac is the most used of the vaccines there
would be more ferrets vaccinated with Fervac.  With more ferrets vaccinated
and no real control over the information gathered it is statistically
impossible to truly predict the relative reaction rates.
 
>>No effort was made to differentiate between circumstances of inoculation.
>Once again, not entirely true - I constructed the survey to ask about
>condition of the injection, the site, whether it was given with rabies or
>not, and left area of comment for other notes.
 
But the results did not use any of this information.  It is critical for the
results to be meaningful that information like this be used.  The questions
asked on the survey are no longer significant of the information that can be
gleened from them is not used.
 
>>No effort was made to separate older ferrets from younger ferrets.
>this is true, but should not matter IMHO.
 
I seem to remember hearing that age is a significant factor in reactions.
This would have been a time to make such a determination.
 
>I do have FERVAC-D in my fridge and use it at the owner's requests.  I have
>had no problems with the recent batches.
 
Mentioning the difference between recent and older batches points to another
flaw in the survey's results as presented.  If the claim is made that that
Fervac changed why was this not taken into account in the tabulation of
results?
 
>...I am also a caring individual who has learned a LOT from personal
>experiences with over 1250 ferrets in 11 years.  As an artist and
>cartographer, I am trained to view and observe things from several
>perspectives and interpret those... realistically and accurately to paper.
 
This is not a visual problem.  Nor have I made any statements that claim you
are not a caring individual.  I would not do so.  I am only commenting on
data and how it is presented.  That is part of my professional background.
Training in art does not have any relevance.  My wife is a trained artist
and that has no relevance either.
 
>In 11 years with ferrets, I have learned more than many veterinarians ever
>will about ferrets.  I have shared those views with many, freely, with
>nothing more than knowing that I might have helped someone out who had no
>where else to turn.
 
We acknowledge the important role in the world of ferrets.  We acknowledge
even that you helped introduce us into the organized ferret world.  I'd had
many years as a ferret owner before that.  There are also quite a few people
who run shelters.  Others have experience as long or even longer.  Others
run shelters that have placed as many ferrets and been as free with
information.  But what does that have to do with the validity of this survey
and the results?
 
>I have given away priceless information with the STAR* database - other
>organizations hoard their member's resources as if anyone knew about other
>ferret groups that they might not rejoin theirs again or something
>similarly selfish.
 
Why are other organizations mentioned here?  What relevance do they have to
a "medical discussion" or rather an analysis of a statistical effort.  And
if this is to rebut me, I make no claims to be a representative of any
organization.  I am merely a member of several including STAR*.  My comments
no more reflect STAR* than any other group I am a member of.
 
>If Mr Killian wants to continue to agree to disagree, fine - but do it
>privately.
 
I did not chose to make this a public survey.  When one chooses to put
oneself in the public eye unfortunately one can not choose to have everyone
agree with them.  I do not object to people disagreeing with me when I post
public comments as long as personal attacks are not part of them.  I have in
no way disparaged either Mr. Davis or Ms. Grant personally.  I only have
questioned a statistical problem.
 
>My training does not make me a Picaso or a Washington (yes, George
>was a cartographer too), and Mr. Killian is no Einstein.
 
On what basis do you conclude that I am "no Einstein"?  I feel that remark
was highly inappropriate.  But since Einstein was a physicist not a
statistician that has no relevance to a statisitical discussion anyway.  A
discussion of statistics in quantum mechanics and Einsteins comments about
probablilty and God don't belong here either.  I was a physics minor.
 
bill and diane killian
zen and the art of ferrets
http://userwww.qnet.com/~killian/zen_home.htm
 
[Moderator's note: No doubt the battle will continue offline.  The
name-calling won't continue here, though.  BIG]
[Posted in FML issue 1542]