[Moderator's note: 2 posts combined.  Some duplication left as-is and not
consolidated.  BIG]
 
>From:    Betty and Jim <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Missing the Point Once Again... Sigh
>There are far too many breeders on this list that would defend the right
>to their livelihood and that is their right.
 
Please read carefully what the breeders have said time and time again.  It
is not a livelihood.  Our breeding costs us even more per year than our
shelter.  The shelter comes far closer to actually breaking even.
 
You plead you were misunderstood when you have missed this point.
 
>The more that we, as a collective, can offer, the more problems are
>brought to the surface and then the real work of finding the solutions
>can finally begin.
 
To find solutions one has to understand the problems.
 
>For the breeders on this list, I will prepare you in that you will find
>this next statement offensive.  Making a living off of animals in my mind
>is wrong.
 
Well its not so offensive as it shows you are just not bothering to read.
 
We breeders do not make a living off of ferrets.  I'm a software engineer
and do well enough that I can afford to breed ferrets on occaisions.
 
>But in regards to breeding, Meg, what exactly is your qualification that
>gives you the right to play G*d?
 
What gives you the right to decide who is playing G*d?  Or god.  Whichever.
 
>I personally have no experience in the field of genetics.  I would have to
>have an extensive medical background to even to begin to try.
 
Genetics is not medicine.
 
>No animal asks to be bred - we make that choice for them.
 
You aren't paying attention if you think they don't ask to breed...
 
You have to neuter them to try to convince them otherwise.
 
>From:    Anne Ryan <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: How shelters spend medical $$
>Who are we to play God and decide who lives and who dies?
 
God has nothing to do with it.  Merely by running a shelter you have
chosen to play god.  Everyone is entitled to have opinions on how money in
ferret shelters should be spent.  Those who choose to operate shelters may
of course ignore some of the advise.
 
>Until you walk a mile in our shoes, don't criticize us.
 
That is no defense.  Anyone who cares about ferrets has the right to voice
opinions here.  Whether you agree with them or not.  I've been that "mile"
and see some validity in the point she made.  She was stating in effect
that shelters owe their donors and their charges a rational basis in
spending decisions.
 
>From:    Rick Roller <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Bob Churches Shelter comments
 
Bob Church did not bash ferret shelters.  Nope.  Didn't happen.  He
mentioned that some shelters had problems.  They do.  There was a really
big stink about one a few years ago that according to many people did
exactly the things Bob mentioned.  Do I need to go into details?  It would
be emabarrasing to others and I don't want to get into that.
 
All Bob did was mention that these problems existed.  We who do run ferret
shelter really do need to acknowledge this and work to fix the problems.
 
>His generalization of all shelters into one big hellhole just makes me
>sick.  We run a small shelter here.
 
What Bob said was not a generalization.  In a generalization one takes
attributes and assigns them to all members of a class.  An "all" statement
not a "some" statement.  I knew darned well that Bob was not referring to
quite a few of the shelters.
 
>I will agree that their are some shelters out there that should not be
>operating.
 
Then you agree more or less completely with how I understood Bob's
comments.  Other statements Bob has made make me feel he was not describing
me in his comments.  I don't indentify with being part of the problems he
mentioned, but I also believe what he wrote is true of other shelters.
People have described such problems in private email to us asking diane and
i for advise in handling the situation.
 
My advice to shelter folk in dealing with Bob's comments is simple.
 
Read what he and others have written.  Se if it might apply to you.  If it
doesn't then it probably wasn't supposed to apply to you.  If it did then
what you should do is sit and think about it.  Decide for yourself if it is
a problem.  If it is - even only a bit then think about what you can do to
fix the problem.  If its not then you can politely thank Bob for his
opinion ans state you disagree.
 
>From:    Alicia <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Zen again
>Bill there  IS a DIFFERENCE!
 
Your post sounds to me very hypocritical.  You for years have condemned
those of us that were both breeders and shelter operators.  Now you use
twists of logic to distinguish between the way you do the same thing you
condemn in others.
 
You make yourself indistinguishable form "Ferretwise" for years and now
make it sound different.  You now spout off to me more or less what Diane
and I have said for years as if you invented it.
 
>perhaps I am off my zen.
 
Cheap shot.  And yes you apparently have no concept of what zen is.  Either
us or the religion you malign.
 
Check your very eamil address.  You write as ferretwise.  You have made it
indistinguishable from yourself until you need a seperation.  Misconceptions
as to who is whom are perhaps the result of your strongly identifying
yourself as Ferret Wise in most cases.
 
In our case we use "halfway house for woebegone weasles" as the name of our
shelter and "international house of ferrets" as the name of our breeding
program.
 
Why have you been so hard on others for doing exactly the same thing you
do?
 
>From:    Mary-Michael Scanlon <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Zen again
 
You aren't exactly setting me straight.  I knew what you wrote before I
read it.  I've never said otherwise.
 
You take great care to explain to me my own often stated opinion.
 
>A "breed rescue" is indeed a very specific type of organization.
 
Yes.  Its exactly what I described.  I'm quite familiar with them.  Our
beloved German shepherd Baron came from one.  Our beloved mutt Esther came
from a dog and cat shelter.  A breed rescue is not what Alicia described.
 
>Your position is kind of like saying a mortgage lender shouldn't
>volunteer at a homeless shelter.
 
Read much more carefully.  My position has for years been that shelters
and breeders should be more co-operative.  Alicia for years has had the
opposite position.  Now she adopts mine.
 
Your analogy is well... lame.  It is also completely non-applicable.  I'm
quite noted for stating that shelter operators and breeders can often be
the same people.  Well like ME!
 
I sense a hostility in your post that is not warranted.  You rebut with my
own point.  Like two kids arguing "Is so!", "Is so!", "Is so!"...
 
>From:    Anne Ryan <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: How shelters spend medical $$
>Who are we to play God and decide who lives and who dies?
 
God has nothing to do with it.  Merely by running a shelter you have chosen
to play god.  Everyone is entitled to have opinions on how money in ferret
shelters should be spent.  Those who choose to operate shelters may of
course ignore some of the advise.
 
>Until you walk a mile in our shoes, don't criticize us.
 
That is no defense.  Anyone who cares about ferrets has the right to voice
opinions here.  Whether you agree with them or not.  I've been that "mile"
and see some validity in the point she made.  She was stating in effect
that shelters owe their donors and their charges a rational basis in
spending decisions.
 
>From:    Purple Cow <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Ferret population/breeding
>I know that the overpopulation of shelters doesn't compare in the least
>to the problems with dogs and cats and I hope that it never does.  Isn't
>there a bit of concern that unless things change now that it could
>end up like that?
 
Not much actually.  The situation with dogs and cats gets better every
year.  Mostly as they come closer to the way ferrets are handled.  The
percentage of pet ferrets that are neutered is very high.  This is what
the dog and cat world are striving for.  The dog and cat only shelters
are envisioning the day when they will no longer have to put animals down
because of population.  They also envision being able to start handling
other animals including ferrets.
 
-bill
 
--
bill and diane killian
zen and the art of ferrets
http://www.zenferret.com/
mailto:[log in to unmask]
[Posted in FML issue 2524]