As I said at the end of my last post, I do not hold it against anyone
who choses not to feed raw &/or whole prey to their pets. Nor does
anyone that I know who feeds it. It's a matter of personal choice.
Everyone that I know that feeds raw &/or whole prey simply recognizes
that raw & whole prey is far more nutritionally complete for their pets
than kibble is.

My response was merely to address the claim that feeding live prey
makes them aggressive. It will NOT make them aggressive by any means.

>I am sure there are folks on the live preygroups you mention that have
>not had increased aggression - but thereare likely as many that do
 (as well as)
>Owners of cats, dogs, ferrets, fennec foxes, and more often find that
>live fed pets are much more prone to aggression. People feed live
>prey like rabbits and cats to dogs that they are training to fight -
>because it makes them meaner.

That is an assumption. There's no proof that a carinvore who is given
raw/whole prey becomes more aggressive. If there is an aggressive
problem, there is likely another issue at stake. In reference to your
mention of fighting dogs, these are dogs they breed to fight. They
may feed animals to their fighting dogs because they think it will
make them meaner, but it's the way they treat them, & encourage them
to fight that makes them meaner, not the meat they feed.

I recently got into Bengal Cats, & have done a lot of research on
them, & have been networking with many Bengal owners. I have heard
many times, that if Bengals do not get enough protein, it can make
them "kinda nutty", to the point where they need psych meds, & many
people ENCOURAGE supplementing their diet with raw meat, so they become
healthier, well adjusted animals...(LESS aggressive on a raw diet-go
figure). I will also be adding whole prey as well.

There is not one "complete nutrition" kibble out there. Period. There
are some that are about as good as kibble can be, but in every kibble,
there is something that is not necessarily benefitial to the animal.
One thing with all kibbles is that they are all very low in moisture,
also, "high protein" does not always mean it's very digestible. (Part
of the protein may come from plant source-not digestible to ferrets).

The most recent American Ferret Report that just arrived happens to
have an article on feeding a natural diet to ferrets. There's also a
chart that compares the nutrition value of an adult mouse to various
kibbles. Even top ranked foods do not come close in comparing
nutritional value in whole prey.

As Ialso said before, most ferrets don't see rodents as a food source,
becaue the have been imprinted on kibble. Many ferrets who are kibble
raised, can play along side of various rodents, with no thought of
killing it & making it a meal.

It takes time to transition a kibble imprinted ferret to raw or whole
prey.

Please clarify the reference to kinkajous. I do not see what they have
to do with feeding raw/whole prey. I know they are int the "carnivore"
category, because of their teeth, but they have a primarily omnivore
diet.

There are many ferrets that live long lives even on low quality kibble.
Once again, I do not judge anyone for not feeding raw or whole prey, or
the best rated kibbles for that matter. People are going to chose what
they want for their kids.

I am not disputing that animals can live long happy lives on kibble, I
am disputing your statement;

>The main problem with feeding any domestic animal live prey is that
>they often instinctively become more aggressive- they have to in
>order to survive- they have to hunt their food and kill it to live

Any domestic animal that kills & eats another animal (cats catching
mice & birds, dogs catching squirrels & rabbits,etc) does not make
them "revert" back to being a wild animal mentality, as some people
think. Domestic animals do not have to fight to survive unless they
are neglected. Even if a animal is neglected, maybe abandoned & has
to search out their food, does not become aggressive if they
catch/kill/eat an animal. They may become fearful of humans, (& act
aggressively) if they were mistreated, or if they were born feral, but
the act of killing an animal for food does not make them aggressive.

You used snakes as an example in your first post;

>Snakes truly need the whole animal prey as it is the onlycomplete food
>that is optimal for their health as no suitable substitute has been
>created

Whole animal prey is the only complete food for ferrets, dogs & cats as
well. ANY kibble foods, regardless of their quality are not nutrionally
"complete".

I am not trying to get you to feed raw or whole prey, by any means,
I am only standing up against false statements made about feeding
raw/whole prey. If someone choses to feed kibble, I only hope they do
their research, start reading labels, & find the best one for their
kids.

----------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Jan 2009 18:17:31 +0000
From:    Alexandra Sargent-Colburn <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Feeding Redux
*MIME-Version: 1.0
*Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
*Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Ferrert Folks-

Every now and then we wrestle with Kibble VS Raw. Both sides make
good arguements. In fact, a few years back I tried switching the now
departed Ping is He and Puma from kibble to raw. I have to say that I
had excellent support in this endevour. A very kind lady in Australia
(Shirley?) talked me through the finer points of it, and directed me
to excellent web resources. I was not left on my own, guessing.

My dilema was thus; Ping was willing to make the switch after some
consistent, gentle persuation. He developed a taste for meat and raw,
meaty bones, although he had a distressing habit of stashing some of
his carcass bits and leaving them for later...much later. Sometimes
never. I would find suppurating chicking wing sections beneath the
furniture, and I didn't care for it. Well, who would? Puma, however,
refused to make the switch. As in, she preferred to starve to death
than make the switch. She lost a shocking amount of weight, and I made
the decision that forcing her to try any longer constituted animal
cruelty. Remember, here. I wasn't in the dark, wildly guessing about
how to support her through the switch. I had knowledegeable people
who were kindly giving me the benerfit of their experience on a daily
basis. Puma, however, wasn't having it. Period.

In a way, I think of it as a foreshadowing. When Puma lost Ping she lay
down, and she stopped eating. If she couldn't have the life she wanted
she didn't want life at all. She joined Ping shortly after he died. I
don't really know what his loss meant to her, but I know what the end
result was. She lay down and she died. She always was a stubborn little
cuss.

I was left with a choice. Would I feed one kibble, which was easy, and
feed one raw, which was more time consuming? My husband made it clear
that he didn't like the thought of being left to feed Ping raw while
I was away, as I frequently am. I thought it was pretty straight
forward, he didn't. I didn't like the thought of swapping Ping from
raw to kibble, over and over again in my absence. We didn't know how
complicated that might be. So I decided to go back to kibble full time
for both, and I feed kibble to this day.

At some point, the Raw VS Kibble arguement always winds up with
a representative from either side slinging dire warnings about
salmonella. It never fails. This is one of the time-tested and true
aspects of any FML Raw VS Kibble debate. It is true that there are
commercial pet food recalls for salmonella and other unpleasant things,
like melamine adulteration. I also know an FML lady who is universally
regarded as an excellent ferret mommy who made the swap from kibble to
raw. She lost a ferret to salmonella, and now feeds kibble. And such is
the venom inherent to most FML Raw Vs Kibble arguements that I would
not even *think* of "outing her" by sharing her identity. Don't even
ask privately off-line. It would dog her forever, and she would be
dragged through the mud for telling the simple truth. She fed raw,
her ferret was diagnosed by a competent vet as having contracted
salmonella, and the ferret did not survive the infection.

In short, neither option is *perfect*, although there will always be
those who argue for their preference as if it were a religious, not a
nutritional preference. This quickly becomes tedious. Eventually, the
(what...twice yearly?) Raw VS Kibble arguement turns into nothing more
than a din of accuasations and counter accusations, and BIG puts an end
to it. We're not there, yet, but the rhetoric is already heating up.

If we're going down the Raw Vs Kibble path again, how about showing
any interested parties some links or resources for making the switch
for anyone who wants to try it? Sometimes making the switch is easy,
sometimes it is not, but I think no one should just give it a try
without some serious support such as I recived. Think how you would
feel, if someone decided for you that you were now going to subsist on
raw meat? I for one would be displeased. Ditto, I would be displeased
if someone decided for me that I would now subsist on nothing but the
same kibble, day after day. I don't care if like Jenny Craig there was
a promise that I would lose forty pounds and be happy forever, I would
rebel. Maybe it works for Valerie Bertanelli. Bully for her. She's not
a ferret.

Alexandra in MA

[Moderator's note: Alexandra's summary is correct -- this issue comes
up about twice a year (primarily because I don't let it come up more
often than that!). After some good information the debate deteriorates
and eventually we have to call an end to it until next time. There are
constantly new subscribers who can benefit from the discussion and I
have no problem letting the cycle repeat. And each time I really think
it gets a bit more civilized. I just wish it would remain that way. BIG]

[Posted in FML 6228]