Sorry BIG, I know it is a little off track...
[Perhaps too much off track. Please see my note in this issue about animal
rights posts. BIG]
>From: Glenn Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Sawyer post
The "Sawyer post", is that like the Nobel Prize? I have never been so
honored. Thanks. Ok, enough joking.
>The Sawyer post:
>>I don't even know where to begin. PETA ... FML not a place for that
>>discussion.
..T...H...E......J...O...H...N...S...O...N......P...O...S...T...
>Nor should it be a place for the glorification of the medieval practice of
>vivisection.
Glorification is a little strong. I was just responding to an opinionated
post with another opinion, thus trying to give another side of the story
and balancing the FML. People can't make up there own minds about an issue
unless more than one side is presented.
>>MF ferrets likely get some form of environmental enrichment, as per recent
>>changes to the Animal Welfare Act, which may include: special food treats,
>>toys, or even a technician playing with them.
>
>What recent changes? What does it say?
So glad you ask. As with many things (regulations, laws, vaccines),
ferrets are not explicitly mentioned (although non-human primates, dogs,
cats, and other species are), but like rabbits and other species, ferrets
are treated similarly to dogs and cats (food treats, social housing when
possible, toys). My experience (4 years in the Biomedical Industry and 2
years as a vet student) is that all species of mammals (in many, but
probably not all facilities) are being provided with environmental
enrichment (I have often seen even mice and rats with PVC tunnels,
Nylabones, and paper to shred). If you are interested in reading the
specifics of the AWA (which are actually very general), recommended
guidelines and regulations, please see the enclosed www sites.
http://www.nalusda.gov/awic/awic.htm Animal Welfare Information Center
specifically: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/awaregs.html
TITLE 9 CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 1, 9 CFR Ch. I (1994 Edition)
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, USDA
SUBCHAPTER A - ANIMAL WELFARE
Here are some additional sites that address animal welfare:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/labrats/ National Academy of Sciences:
Guide for the Care and Use of Laboratory Animals
http://www2.nas.edu/ilarhome/ ILAR: Institute for Laboratory Animal Research
In addition, here are a few sites with scientist researching alternatives
to animal research (lab animal vet motto: "Reduce, Refine, Replace").
http://www.sph.jhu.edu/~altweb/ The Johns Hopkins University: Center For
Alternatives To Animal Testing (CAAT)
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal_Alternatives/main.htm UC CENTER FOR
ANIMAL ALTERNATIVES
http://www.ei.jrc.it/report/ecvam.html ECVAM: European Centre for the
Validation
of Alternative Methods
Finally, here are a few sites that are either professional organizations
for lab animal vets or are pro-animal research.
http://www.aclam.org/ American College of Laboratory Animal Medicine
http://www.aslap.org/ American Society of Laboratory Animal Practitioners
http://www.ampef.org/ Americans for Medical Progress
>>This type of enrichment and socialization is part of what probably makes a
>>MF ferret so enjoyable to have as a pet (in addition to selective breeding).
>>Final thought on this thread, I believe that MF must have at least one
>>veterinarian on staff who is available 24/7/365. It is likely that they
>>have several vets who rotate their schedules, otherwise the individual
>>would go crazy. These are people who care enough to research and write
>>books concerning the health and welfare of ferrets as pets, so we as ferret
>>owners can enjoy the healthy antics of our beloved little monsters.
>
>You've already said, elsewhere in your post, that you know nothing of MAR.
>Where did you get all of this information?
You are right, as I said, I don't know anything specific about Marshall
Farms. What I do know about are the breeding facilities and labs at which
I have either visited or worked. Since Marshall Farms comes under many (if
not all) the same regulations as these facilities and is therefore also
inspected by the USDA/APHIS, I can thus make the next logical step and say
that "MF ferrets LIKELY (you didn't read that part did you) get some form
of environmental enrichment..." In addition, as I consider several
laboratory animal veterinarians colleagues, mentors, and some even friends,
I believe that I can make the statement, "I BELIEVE that MF must have at
least one veterinarian on staff who is available 24/7/365. It is LIKELY
that they have several vets who rotate their schedules, otherwise the
individual would go crazy."
More importantly, see: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ac/awaregs.html
TITLE 9 CODE OF FEDERAL REGULATIONS Subpart C - Research Facilities
§ 2.33 Attending veterinarian and adequate veterinary care.
>>Absolutely true. All of these are qualities that pertain to the use of
>>ferrets as research animals. Is this really important to the FML?
>
>Yeah, I think so, since this is for the most part an animal lover's forum.
>Most ferret lovers don't share your cavalier attitude toward the senseless
>destruction of a living thing.
Are you insinuating that I love my ferrets (or other pets) less than you or
anyone else? My wife and I both cried the night that our first-adopted,
Willow, died post-operatively following a bilateral adrenalectomy. The ICU
vet and vet surgeon did everything that they could for her that night at
the Veterinary Hospital of the Univ. of Pennsylvania and I would have
gladly paid whatever financial price to still have her with us. She was a
little monster, but we loved her like she was an angel. Our picture albums
contain almost all ferret photos, eventhough my wife and I come from large
families. We brag about our "kids" to friends, scold them when they are
bad, spoil them, talk to them, play "tag" with them. I think that your
choice of the word "cavalier" is poor. As much "quality" time as I spend
with my ferrets, I spend even more "quality" time with the lab animals when
I am working. I don't share your opinion (neither do many people who use
medical products) that it is the senseless destruction of a living thing
and so I do my best to make sure that their lives were as pleasant as
possible, their deaths were painless and had some value. These are some of
the reasons that I decided to go to veterinary school, to dedicate my life
to the health and welfare of people AND animals (especially species such as
ferrets). I admit that if our child and our ferrets were in a burning
building, I would get our child first ... I don't think there is anything
wrong with that.
>>What/who is RIR? To play Devil's advocate, how do we know that this
>>whistleblower didn't set the fire and there is a criminal investigation
>>going on? Until some facts are known or where the presented "facts" came
>>from, it is just hearsay. Let the fire fighters, insurance company, MF,
>>USDA, and sheriff do their jobs and stop spreading gossip and innuendo.
>
>The MAR fire story appeared in the newspaper. The only one spreading gossip
>and innuendo is you, and another example of it follows:
I am glad the story appeared in the newspaper, but as I said "To play
Devil's advocate..." To most people this means that I don't necessarily
believe that the following is true, just "what if?" So, what actually
happened? Email me privately if you wish. Thanks.
>>This is mostly a case of he (official) said one thing, but we don't believe
>>him, so instead we spoke to someone down the line who is probably less
>>informed who told us what s/he thought, which matched the conclusion we
>>wanted to tell everyone.
I will stand by this one.
>Next:
>>Stated very simply, accept animal research (in some form) or accept
>>slower, more expensive, less accurate medical progress. I don't know any
>>scientist who enjoys animal experimentation, but I know quite a few who
>>feel that their work may someday help someone or someone's pet.
>
>The word "experimentation" is correct. The rest is just more conjecture.
>I'm not alone in the belief that animal experimentation is an ugly, useless
>relic from the past that would die overnight if not for the free and easy
>tax funded grant dollars. Dollars that should be spent on legitimate
>clinical research.
You say conjecture, I have experience to say otherwise. I would gladly
give up my lab job to take care of pet ferrets the rest of my life.
Unfortunately, there are still laboratory ferrets and other animals which
need care, too. Also, to clarify clinical research, it means on the
organism to which the medical product will be applied. How do you propose
we test ferret vaccines? What about vaccines or medical procedures that
can be used on both ferrets and other species (cats, dogs, even humans)?
An aside, if you are volunteering to be a test subject in a clinical
research program, be my guest. It isn't the most pleasant experience.
You might ask, how do I know? My wife is working in the field and I have
friends who got extra money in college for volunteering. Sometimes it is
enough to be healthy, other times you have to be sick with the disease.
If I was sick with cardiovascular disease, I would want to know that I had
a decent chance of getting the correct dose of drug, which may have been
determined by testing that drug on a ferret with a similar disease.
>On a more personal note, I know that every ferret that dies on a
>vivesectionist's butcher block is not one bit different from the little
>boy that's pulling at my pant leg this very minute.
Butcher block ... pure sensationalism. My only comment is that I work with
a board certified veterinary surgeon who does cardiovascular work - far
from a butcher block. However, you are right, that ferret is no different
than the ones that we all keep as pets ... just a lot less lucky. It is
truly sad.
Glenn, it has been a very good experience to discuss this topic with you.
I had to do a little work to track down my references, refreshed my memory
of some of the guidelines and regulations, and wrote down my feelings about
the loss of one of my own. Thank you. I won't be responding to this
thread anymore as I have said all that I wish to say. Please don't take my
writing out of context, I just wanted to give the FML the other side (to
balance). Without dissenting opinions, the world would be a lot less
interesting.
******************************
Sean D. Sawyer V'00
University of Pennsylvania
School of Veterinary Medicine
[log in to unmask]
******************************
[Posted in FML issue 2393]
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