[Multi-part post combined. Nice bunch of comments IMHO. BIG]
Let me say this first. I don't think many people understand just how
small kits are when they are first born. They are the width of a pinkie
finger and about the length of your thumb. Their heads are smaller then
the first joint of your pinkie and their mouths cannot open very much -
you cannot get a finger in their at all. They look very much like
cocktail shrimp. They look like they are not fully formed, either.
Before I answer/reply to anything - I want to make it clear that I am not
agreeing with this breeder and I only know what has been stated on this
list on this subject.
>From: Mellisa Eberle <[log in to unmask]>
>
>I would LOVE to have a Christmas gift of newborn ferrets....
>I would be happy to pay for all air frieght and your costs.
This would be impossible for a few reasons. Airlines and USDA require
the mother to accompany animals under 6 weeks of age while traveling.
Plus they need health certificates. No vet would approve of airline
travel for newborn ferret kits. And being this time of year - they would
get chilled and die. Kits with no food will die very quickly. Within 2
days at the most.
>From: W & H Enterprises <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: dead kits response
>
>Feed the kits. Sooner than every 2 hours.
Correct. Once an hour to an hour 1/2 (two hours if they are older). I
did this with a litter of 13. I couldn't feed, clean, and eliminate
(poop & pee) them all by the time the first one was in need of feeding
again. This process took me 5-10 minutes per kit. I was doing anything
else but taking care of them. And I mean nothing. They died off anyway.
There is no way to feed them. They do not make tubes small enough to
fit them and people often overfeed youngsters causing aspiration of even
the piercing of the stomach with the tube. The tube can also be
inadvertently be put in the lungs filling them with liquid of puncturing
them as well. Also, it is hard to find milk to use for these kits. Cat,
dog, rabbit, goat, horse, etc milk are not suitable. I had a kit I hand
reared one time that had her growth stunted because of the milk I fed
her. At 10 weeks old - she was the size of a 6 week old. She later died
and a necropsy showed that she had no fat on her organs, but a big, fat,
full stomach. She was suffering nutritionally.
>They have to stay warm and next to the mother.
You can overheat them (cook them) quickly. And if they are too cold they
cannot digest food.
>How long did you leave her alone in her cage, before she delivered? You
>need to leave the jill in her cage about 30 - 60 days in the cage, never
>letting her out.
Oh my goodness, no. You should let them out. They need time away (when
the kits get older). The jills know what to do. If ferrets were wild
(look at polecats) they would leave the nest to hunt.
>From: Teresa Scott <[log in to unmask]>
>She was trying to tell me that there was no way to save them since the
>jill did not produce milk. I believe in breeding responsibly! If you
>decide to breed a young jill, out of season, and she is not a good mom
>or gets an infection or produces no milk. It is your responsibilty to
>SAVE THE BABIES!
A breeder can try to line up a foster jill for the kits - one of theirs
or another breeder s jill. But this is not always possible. There may
not be a jill with kits the same age (nipples get larger as the kits get
older) or the foster may not have gotten pregnant (false pregnancy). Or
the breeder may not have another breeder near them. I, too, believe in
breeding responsibly. And part of breeding responsibly is to not over
breed. If the breeder cannot deal with two litters of kits the same age
(the is a big job), then it is out of the question to breed two jills so
one can foster the other. That is not responsible. If you can t handle
it, you make life harder for those animals - they get lack of care, lack
of human contact, whatever. And to me, my jills are a number one
priority - not the babies. If they were meant to live - then they would
have. Sometimes nature has a way of making things work out for the
better - even if it isn t the way we want it to be. That jill may not be
genetically suitable for procreation and no milk production is nature s
way of making sure that animal doesn t create other genetically flawed
animals.
>This person works a full time job, and said they could not feed babies
>all day.
Read above - I tried this with no success and it was ALL I DID. No
time for sleeping, eating, working, etc. I seriously did not sleep
for 3 days.
>I am thinking about asking her to give me the kits, if this happens
>again, to save. I will do all the work, etc. Or ask other ferret
>knowledgeable people to help me. I am sure she would be offended.
Go for it! If she will let you, you can try. She might not be
offended - she may really want the help! I am sure you will have
plenty of support via the internet. Also, Dr. John Lewington s book
has an appendix with hand rearing information in it.
>Is it against the law to do what she did? Is there some recourse that
>can be taken?
I am not sure. You could contact the Human Society. I would think that
she should have at least have tried to get the milk in with a hormone
shot and at the very least had the jill examined by a vet to make sure
all kits were out (milk production usually is not started until all kits
are born). Not doing so is irresponsible.
>From: Lona <[log in to unmask]>
>
>I am a CVT. If the breeder/shelter believes you cannot save kits with a
>mom that does not provide milk, she has not the needed essentials to be
>a breeder or a shelter.
Have you ever hand reared newborn ferret kits? Or seen newborns at all?
They are TINY and I was told by my vet that there wasn t even a tube
small enough to tube feed them. Newborns have u-shaped tongues that fold
like that all the way to the back of the throat (for nipple placement).
Teeny tiny mouths. Teeny tiny babies.
>From: Mellisa Eberle <[log in to unmask]>
>
>I offered to pay all costs associated with relocating the now dead kits
>to my home - to give them a chance at life. Gee... you couldn't feed
>them while you were at your job? Could you pay a vet to feed them?
>No - you did not even care about the alternatives. You could have
>simply turned them all over to someone willing and able to care for
>YOUR responsibilities.
Ok - lets not flame away before we know the full story.
The kits would not have been able to travel to you unless you live in
driving distance. They would not have been allowed to fly at all (read
above). And if they were, they would have died.
Again - read about how much time, effort, and stats there are with hand
rearing newborn ferret kits. She would not be able to work as she would
be feeding them all the time. This is a big job (I give jills LOTS of
credit!).
A vet would not do it. They have other things to do as do their vet
techs. Many vets and breeders will tell you that hand rearing ferret
kits are impossible.
You do not know if she tried alternatives. Do you know that she didn t
try to locate another breeder? Or that she bred another jill that had
a false pregnancy?
Sometimes breedings just do not work out. There is a 0.1% chance they
will survive if fed by a human. The best thing for this breeder to have
done (just leaving them is cruel, I agree) is to take them to a vet to be
humanly put down.
>If you were a breeder, you would have taken those poor kits to a vet
>with the jill. Chances are, the vet could have enduced milk production
>with the help of hormone injections.
I agree. They all should have gone to the vet. But we do not know what
was done as we have not heard from the breeder.
>At worst case scenario, the kits could have been tube fed and still be
>alive tonight.
I doubt it.
>And yes - I read your website. What beautiful cinnamons and blue-eyed
>white kits you peddle to the public.
I am lost here - I do not know what breeder it is - was the information
posted and I missed it?
>Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:33:06 EST
>From: Danee DeVore <[log in to unmask]>
Excellent post, Danee.
>From: Chris Lloyd <[log in to unmask]>
>
>How many people on this list this list have actually raised new born
>ferret kits. I mean kits that have never fed from their mother not
>ones that have been rejected after a few days or weeks.
I have tried and failed. I raised one kit from 2 weeks of age and two
others from 2.5 to 3 weeks of age. It is VERY difficult.
>I don't even open the nest box to look for the first 5/7 days
I have found that as long as I have a good relationship with my jills,
they are fine with me cleaning up and checking on them and the kits. One
jill even insisted I be next to her belly (grabbing my thumb and putting
it there) while she was having her kits. I stroked her while she had
each kit and only left her after she had curled up with them and went to
sleep. It calmed her down by me being with her. I have had several
jills like this. Most all of them would gently grab my thumb and take
it into the nest box with the kits. That being said, I never let others
touch the kits.
>From: Dana Goessl <[log in to unmask]>
>
>I also breed show rabbits.
Can you give us an idea of how big rabbits are as newborns?
>It is extremely hard to feed and raise a litter, but it is possible. It
>takes time and alot of energy on our parts to feed, encourage to poop
>and pee, clean, love, cuddle.
Can you give pointers on how you do this?
Amy Flemming
[Posted in FML issue 4012]
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