btwn fever comments for the FHL and FML:

FIRST OF ALL, REMEMBER THAT THESE QUESTIONS MIGHT GO TOO FAR FROM WHAT
HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED TO BE VALID QUESTIONS, OR THEY MIGHT NOT, OR SOME
MIXTURE.

REMEMBER, TOO, THAT THESE QUESTIONS ARE UNANSWERABLE AT THIS POINT IN
TIME.

There are intriguing questions -- to which NO ONE has definitive or
accurate answers yet no matter what they claim -- that lead from:

http://www.nih.gov/news/health/nov2013/nci-21.htm

Some dog studies have found some sharing of microbiome among family
members, dog and human. Dogs, btw, also have ten genetic changes from
extant wolves for carb digestion (There is recent work suggesting that
dogs might originate from an extinct wolf from around Switzerland, but
other research points to S.E. Asia (also one study), or the Middle East
(again, one study). It might be all of them, somewhat interbred over
the millenia.

*****Neither of those types of work have been done YET in ferrets. The
microbiome work has not been done in ferrets, and the genetics related
to diet work has not been done in ferrets.*****

A perhaps important question is whether obese ferrets fare worse w
chemo. (Some obese humans have much less varied microbiomes than
thinner healthy ones typically have. That might be one of the
determining factors for which heavy individuals are healthy -- and a
number ARE -- and which are not, as are things like being physically
active, avoiding vascular disease or diabetes (or both) and some other
factors. Some bacteria release byproducts that reduce inflammation
while others release ones that increase it. The nasty ones show up in
higher levels and the healthier ones in lower levels at a higher rate
in heavy individuals in some comparative studies of microbiomes. How
much of that can be changed w dietary changes is an open question but
increasing dietary plant fiber and decreasing animals fats look to be
a possible good combination to do for humans.)

One fascinating study on less varied microbiomes in obese individuals
(in that case in mice which were given microbiota from identical human
twin sets in which one twin was thin to normal while the other was vey
heavy) has demonstrated that the more varied microbiome of thinner
individuals can best take hold w a varied diet high in fibrous plant
foods and low in fats. In fact, they were able to have the more varied
thin microbiome take hold ONLY when the diet contained enough plant
fiber and was low enough in animal fats. So, like being physically
active, it may be that over-all weight might itself be less important
for some things than the dietary variety with plenty of plant fiber and
low animal fat levels — at least for human health, but the data on that
aspect does not exist for much beyond human and rodent. Remember here,
though, that other research shows that dogs and their humans tend to
share microbiota to some extent.

As I recall, the bacterial types more prone to cause inflammation
tended to be among those over-represented and the ones that decrease
inflammation tended to be under-represented in the heavy mouse
microbiome in that study.

So, this new study:
http://www.nih.gov/news/health/nov2013/nci-21.htm
on restricted intestinal microbiomes leading to worse response to chemo
treatment leads beyond the possibility that using antibiotics in such
individuals may be counter-productive to the question of whether obese
individuals tend to fare worse with treatment for malignancies and if
adjusting their microbial populations might improve survival rates?

It also leads to the question of WHY those treatments work less well
when the microbiome is impaired (actual mechanisms in detail)?

It may also lead to questions on how much of this is the need for
certain bacteria in the gut for some forms of chemo to work, and what
dietary ingredients might improve survival for ferrets having those
treatments by permitting alteration in microbiota and how long that
could take?

Another question set to which it leads: do wild animals whose diet is
more constrained than that of omnivores tend to fare worse when they
get malignancies due to a less varied microbiome, and do pets with
more restricted diets fare worse with malignancies?

NO ONE HAS DEFINITIVE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS!

People will have experiences, and if they have have had a number of
ferrets who did better with a range of malignancies than expected -- as
we have personally encountered with our kibble fed ferrets -- then
PERHAPS that might mean that that diet make a difference for them, or
perhaps they just had milder strains of the malignancy types since
those do exist. Furthermore, optimal diets for medical needs are not
always the same as for healthy individuals in their prime.

Personal experiences are interesting, and if there are a lot that are
similar they are suggestive, but there are so many factors involved and
exceptions exist to everything so be careful to not overweigh them,
even if the writers with those experiences do so.

(OT at first BTW but then it leads back into topic, since I have not
found a diet and exercise diary program which has all needed functions
for use being scalable (though one is now trying to work on that
problem) I decided to replace some of my carb and animal protein
servings with veggies, fruits, and beans, doing a gradual increase of
those foods. It seemed the only way to adjust diet for weight loss
without being able to see the resources well, and it is panning out
nicely. At first it had exactly the results you would expect with
hunger and more bathroom trips, but then my gut adjusted -- which took
months -- so I think perhaps that means that I had an increase in the
healthy forms of microbial denizens found in human intestines and
perhaps a decrease in the others. Interestingly, my food desires also
changed so when I do something like have a turkey sandwich I wind up
piling the veggies on because it tastes boring otherwise, and having
veggies and fruits along with it. I have also been painlessly having
weekly decreases in weight.

If ferrets are like humans on these things -- and despite the
assertions of some there still is insufficient data to know enough --
and if people want to try introducing foods that are more varied then
do a very gradual introduction.

There is in vet med also a technique set used in some herbivores for
microbiome transfer sometimes through stomach tube and sometimes
through colonic tube and it has proven useful for IBD in some species
leading to the question of whether inserting a healthy microbiome from
a healthy ferret into a ferret with IBD might improve that ferret's
health. This approach has in recent years been proving to be useful
for a number of humans, too.)

REMEMBER THAT THESE QUESTIONS MIGHT GO TOO FAR FROM WHAT HAS BEEN
DEMONSTRATED TO BE VALID QUESTIONS, OR THEY MIGHT NOT.

REMEMBER, TOO, THAT THESE QUESTIONS ARE UNANSWERABLE AT THIS POINT IN
TIME.

--

Additional heart worm refs for discussion related to the MUMS inclusion
for Cat Advantage for ferrets discussion begun yesterday so be patient
w me doing all at once btwn fevers:

http://www.heartwormsociety.org

http://www.heartwormsociety.org/download/Incidence-Map-2010.pdf

Old but useful for ferrets already infected w heartworm and there is a
slightly recent study at PubMed on extraction:

http://www.miamiferret.org/heartworm.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20045834


Sukie (not a vet)  Ferrets make the world a game.

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html

"All hail the procrastinators for they shall rule the world tomorrow."
(2010, Steve Crandall)

A nation is as free as the least within it.

[Posted in FML 7969]