>From: Cynthia Shook <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Thoughts on Breeding
>Well, a responsible breeder, no matter what animal would make sure they
>never backbreed unless it is the 4+ generation.
This is true. But a responsible breeder would not get 400 breeding animals
and looking for more! And 10 ferrets would be fine in a breeding program
if they were non-related. Even 100. But 400 is excessive.
>So if you want to limit inbreeding (which has destroyed so many full
>bloodlines); you have to have quite a few "parents" so that you can make
>sure that you don't backbreed too soon.
And this is how small breeders work it. They bring jills to other
breeders' hobs. They do kit swaps, they stud out their hobs for the
price of a kit, etc. They don't keep 400 ferrets.
>From: Debbie Scott <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: I want to hear from Tennessee people...
>It is hard to turn your back when you see poop as high as 3 feet tall
>standing under cages, it is hard to turn your back when you see ferrets
>with nothing to lay on in their cages except a piece of dirty wood.
And that is if they are lucky enough to get wood to sleep on. I have been
into a large facility like this and witnessed a new born kit in a pile of
poop under the cage - purple, cold, and hardly alive. But it is not
uncommon. If you are that big you can miss things.
>From: Rudik Elaine <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Kit and Caboodle Ferretry
>Despite a lot of flaming against the Coles of Kit and Caboodle Ferretry,
>they have now been given a ringing endorsement by the president of the
>American Ferret Association.
And this means what? The AFA president never gave them a ringing
endorsment. She said that she thought they were good people and were
trying. I notice that you forgot to mention that the AFA president also
she stated that she didn't agree with a particular WS breeding practice
of theirs.
>Hopefully, ferret fanciers will now realize that the Coles are attempting
>to do the right thing and give them the credit they deserve.
I doubt it! They already have a litter of blaze kits that were produced by
breeding a blaze to a blaze. Doesn't sound like they are doing anything
right by the ferrets to me! OR that they know about WS and the dangers -
or that they do and don't care.
>The AFA president said she has talked to them many times, they are good
>Christian people who care deeply for their ferrets.
Their Christian beliefs have nothing to do with they way they run their
ferretry. And if they cared so much for their ferrets, why was it noticed
by more than one party that they were not affectioate to their ferrets at
shows?
>Yes, they have been talking to show officials about the possibility of
>adding new rings to the shows due to new colors and new patterns that they
>have developed in the relatively short time they have been involved with
>ferrets.
Wow - they developed these "new" colours in less than a year. I am
impressed. It usually takes several to accomplish something like this.
More than several actually.
>Should they also be criticized for having the ingenuity and knowledge
>to develop new colors and patterns?
Knowledge? From where? The breeder that they bought the ferrets from?
>They have been in the forefront in developing a new blaze type, "Demi
>Gigas", "honey caramels", and "tangerine albinos" and will undoubtedly
>develop others.
An albino is an albino - there is no variation. From
http://www.dictionary.com and Websters "albino \Al*bi"no\ (?; 277), n.;
pl. Albinos. [Sp. or Pg. albino, orig. whitish, fr. albo white, L. albus.]
A person, whether negro, Indian, or white, in whom by some defect of
organization the substance which gives color to the skin, hair, and eyes is
deficient or in a morbid state. An albino has a skin of a milky hue, with
hair of the same color, and eyes with deep red pupil and pink or blue iris.
The term is also used of the lower animals, as white mice, elephants, etc.;
and of plants in a whitish condition from the absence of chlorophyll.
--Amer. Cyc."
And from the same site but from WorldNet "tangerine adj : of a strong
reddish orange color". So this means we have a yellow albino caused by
oil secretions or from being dirty or from bad food - or other reasons.
The Demi Gigas was developed by Doug McKay (of where the Coles got some
of their ferrets - and Doug has not kept track of his ferrets genetic
backgrounds for years - as told to me by Doug McKay). The first ferret in
the line was a hob named Demi Gigas. More about that in the FML archives
if you care to search.
Honey carmels are chocolates with yellow undercoats. Yellow undercoats
are seen in ferrets due to oil secreations, bad food, being dirty, etc.
>The Coles just could be the "shot in the arm" needed by the ferret
>community.
Or the shot in the head.
>From: Leonard Bottleman <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Two Pole and Breeders bashing other breeders
>Nearly half of the unwanted ferrets that were purchased from Two Pole (no,
>they were not relinquished, they had to be purchased) had some form of
>genetic problems, mostly involving facial or limb deformities. Most of
>the ferrets were severe biters, although this may have been from lack of
>handling rather than genetic dispositions.
Thank you for disclosing this information to the group. It is not the
Coles per se that we should be conscerned with - they can be molded. It
is their choice of stock and what they do with it that we should be
worried about.
>From: Danielle Frye <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Two Pole
>If there is something we should beware of with the stock, I would like to
>know what it is.
See above.
>Somebody said something about colors. What about colors? I have seen
>some very unusual colors of ferrets in my time, including two sables that
>had a somewhat orange tint. One person thought it was due to diet, but
>the ferrets were fed a mix of Totally Ferret and Mazzuri. The vet gave
>these sables a clean bill of health and said that these ferrets were
>simply an unusual color. One shelter I visited called them "Rue" ferrets.
The biggest "color" I am concerned about is anything with a pattern on it -
such as blaze or panda. They are WS and usually deaf - or deformed.
>Also, why are people assuming that a place that has 400 ferrets is
>automatically going to be bad?
Have you ever been to a place that has 400 ferrets? 100? 50? If you have
then you would understand. It is not the amount - but how they are kept.
>It is kind of funny that the same folks who support Marshall Farms
>(constantly defend them any time there is debate) are the same folks who
>opposed Charlie and are also bashing her.
Not true. At least on my part and from a few other folks I have seen
respond.
>Let's give the new people the benefit of the doubt and until closer
>observation can be made (an actual visit to the facilities), quit
>speculating and being negative.
Ok - how about a person that has seen a litter of all blaze kits by two
blaze parents? The kits looked fat and fluffy, but they were only 4
weeks old. Can they hear? Who knows - their ears aren't open yet.
>A breeder can breed ferrets for a long time but it does not make them a
>good breeder.
This is true. But ferret breeding knowledge takes hands on to learn. Ask
any person that has had a litter of kits. I am sure Kim Rushing can atest
to that with the rescue jill that had kits.
>If we are going to fault a breeder for producing unusual colors, then
>shouldn't we also speculate about how Angoras are produced?
If necessary. The thing with WS is that it is genetic and we KNOW that
ferrets are deaf or partial deaf due to the genetic defect. This is more
dangerous than an angora as a deaf feret is more likely to be abused and
dumped onto a shelter.
>Let's remember that the further from the gene pool, you often see problems
>(health and/or behavioral).
Sorry - I don't understand. Are you saying that diversity is when you see
more problems or in a closer gene pool (i.e. inbreeding or line breeding)?
>I also don't understand why it matters how many ferrets one enters in a
>show.
How would you feel if you entered one ferret and it placed very low because
all the ferrets that placed ahead of it were owned by the same person? Why
bother showing, right?
>Are there limits?
No - but there should be. Would make the shows go much faaster.
>This is called good marketing.
Yes and no. For targeting the newbie then yes. They will see the ferrets
win and then they will want a kit so they can win, too. But for the
diehards that show it will piss them off and they will not buy a ferret
because they detest the breeder for wining. I have seen this with other
breeders and shows. OR other breeders will drop out of showing altogether.
>Again, these people are bashed because they "get it" and are obviously a
>threat to the smaller breeders (experienced or inexperienced).
No. They are being bashed because they are new ferret owners that are
buying a rediculas amount of breeding stock and are promoting WS.
>From: Charleen Schuster <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Charlie Herring - Two Pole Pumpkin Ferretry (My two cents!)
>I hope the new owners will test these ferrets for ADV and will let us
>know what they find out! ...
>
>It has come to my attention that a certain Shelter/breeder in the Seattle
>area has in the past had ferrets that had ADV. and that also those ferrets
>were sent to a Breeder/shelter in Oregon.
Thanks for posting this information. Like I said - I hope they are testing
those ferrets for ADV!
>From: William Killian <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: zen's comments centered on Two Pole for the most part
>The diet Charlie espoused was inadequate. It promoted nice coats but was
>unbalanced and led to very light bone structure and inadequate muscle
>cover.
Do you know what she was feeding and can you tell us how you know this? I
know that you judge and have, I am sure, seen some of her ferrets. Was
this how you know?
>Charlie was clueless about genetics - the fact she believed in a
>"x-factor" that is the combination of all colors is key to understanding.
I remeber seeing her (or a rep) with kits at some shows. She was selling a
pink platnum for $550. The ferret was silver.
>Our daughter Courtney examined several of her ferrets at a show in
>Michigan. In a few brief moments she observed ferrets with skeletal,
>muscular and even eye problems that had an asking price of hundreds of
>dollars. We examined the same animals and noted the accuracy of
>Courtney's observations.
This has been noted by another well know judge as well.
>We are concerned about the size of the endeavor but have no reason to
>suspect Kit and Caboodle is destined to be a problem.
How can you think this if what you said about their breeding stock choice
is true?
>From: Anonymous Poster <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Kit and Caboodle
>Why are the Coles so obsessed with entering so many ferrets at each show
>and winning as many ribbons and trophies as possible?
Been bitten by the show bug? Think it will sell kits? They need to take
a lesson from dog shows and dog breeders.
>The Coles are monopolizing ferret shows by entering 40 or more ferrets
>in each show and, apparently, with their newest purchases, they will be
>entering many more. There is no way that this can be described as being
>fair to those of us who have but one or two ferrets, or for that matter,
>small breeders who produce quality ferrets rather than ferrets in large
>numbers.
EXACTLY!
Excellent suggestion about the shows. I believe that enteries in classes
should be limited for each breeder/household and always have.
Confused and Concerned Ferret Lover
[Posted in FML issue 3210]
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