Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see any mud slinging in this
thread. In fact, I was enjoying the discussion because I was learning
about all different viewpoints. However, I was irritated to wake up to
topic line like this. Kim, maybe you felt like something said was over
the line. But even if I did miss something that was meant to be harsh,
I was really hoping that if any strongly worded posts came along on
this topic others wouldn't follow suit. I was hoping that for a change
people would stay focused and listen to "what" was said rather than
"how" it was said. I could pick through and dissect parts of your post
that I think are, well, snarky. But instead I listened to what was said
 ... the heart and core of what you were expressing and contributing.

Anyway, on to your post. To answer your questions, there is a huge
difference between a creature that has a thinking conscious brain and
an invertebrate that does not. They process pain differently. And
animals with little to no part of the brain that is able to do anything
but "think" in reflex and instinct does not anticipate the fear of pain
to come or impending death. To compare them is extreme and bordering on
not being rational. And you know what? Yes it does makes most people
who are hyper sensitive to the feelings of all walks of life feel
really bad about something as common as feeding fish insects. The
difference is most of them only feed animals live prey when they are
forced to. Some FML'ers here, don't even do that! They make the choice
to not own pets who require live feeding to live. The fact is, most
pets do not require live feedings to live and to live well.

A domestic ferret is just that. Domestic, just like a dog or cat. It's
"more" domestic than a cat in fact. If people were told that feeding
live prey to dogs and cats were "better" for them, they still would not
do it. It's unnecessary. For many people, the consideration for
the smaller creatures well being outweighs any unstudied and theorized
benefits of feeding live animals. In some parts of the country, feeding
live creatures to dogs is actually illegal. Why would a ferret be any
different? Many zoo's won't feed live food to their animals if they
don't have to. They opt feed prekilled prey whenever possible and
enrich the predators lives in a variety of other ways. Many zoos
simulate the chase of the whole prey for tigers for example.

You said that when a ferret kills a mouse, it's quick. I didnt'
respond to that because I felt like I had no right to as you are more
experienced in live feeding than I am. But, now that I am posting
again on the subject I'll say this. I have fed live crickets on
occasion to my ferrets in the past because people who strongly believe
in the benefits of live food, such as yourself convinced me, to at
least try ... or start small and compromise by using insects rather
than mammals. And other than two, all of my ferrets did in fact take
a bit of time to kill them. I had several that did enjoy playing with
them first. Pong, the smartest ferret I ever owned, did something
interesting. He would systematically bite each cricket he encountered
to wound them so they could not escape easily so he could play with
them for a while. Later, he'd suddenly tire of the game, and would
chow them down. Even if a ferret is strikingly quick and efficient
with their kill, I'm sorry but a mammal "knows" there is a terrifying
danger. And while they are being chewed alive, they scream out in pain.
I've heard the mice scream sometimes when my son feeds his snakes. And
much of the time, they strike the side of the head and neck breaking
it making the death much quicker. Anything that does not take a couple
seconds and does not render you unconscious is not "quick". They say
the bear that killed naturalist, Timothy Treadwell, didn't take "long".
But tell that to Tim. I'm sure he was not thinking it was "quick" as
his skull was being crushed and he was eaten alive.

If you and others strongly believe in what you do. I understand that.
I even keep in mind that I may be wrong and I try to learn from
everyone's experiences, now matter how little or great. But I feel the
need to address the fact that some people feel pressured or even guilty
in how they are raising their ferrets because of a few of the more
vocal, stronger opinionated, natural feeders. And they have no reason
to feel that way at this point. None whatsoever. They are feeding their
animals food that has been studied. They are doing the best that they
can, just as you are. I know of many ferret people who let bills go
unpaid just so they can give their ferrets the very best food and
supplements on the market. There are several on the FML that feed live,
but they don't try to tell me that what I believe is wrong. And I
never, ever push my beliefs about what I think is ethical or not onto
them. I respect them too much. They have been nothing but supportive
of how I feed my ferrets, and they have never been anything but gentle
in discussing what they believe in and practice (by the way to those
of you whom I've enjoyed such discussions with in the past, I'm so
appreciative for that). Because of their low key approach, I'm wildly
open to the subject. I myself never said anything was barbaric. At the
time I offered up no opinion there (even though I had one). I brought
up "ethics to consider" in my post not for myself, but to supposition
what others might think is a serious issue just like I brought up other
things that might be on peoples minds concerning the subject.

I just hate that this topic is starting to turn a bit personal and
emotional for some. People can discuss feelings, beliefs, and theories
about whether live feeding has a positive or negative impact on ferrets
and have any ethical issues concerning the "food" without preaching
that they are right and without picking apart their words. Kim, you are
assertive, direct, and even opinionated but you usually stay within
bounds of being reasonable and polite. As a reader, even if others
provoke you or don't act well, two wrongs don't make a right.

Lastly, please understand that as far as this topic goes, anything
other than the nutritional value of feeding is pretty much subjective
at this point and we should all be open to all sides. All we have are
anecdotes and theories. Those are very important with the lack of
formal studies, especially from the veteran ferret owners. In fact,
unless you have seen many ferrets over a life time (the ferrets) of
natural vs other ferrets raised on kibble over a lifetime, it should
really be presented carefully if at all.

[most of this is actually directed towards the FML as a whole, only
bits are specific to Kim ... just so she doesn't think I"m singling her
out or anything]

[Posted in FML 6233]