[2 posts combined. BIG]
 
Betty,
 
Although there have been some heated and hurtful notes (some from your
corner, by the way) and some opinions (everyone) this whole discussion has
been quite civil so far.  It's good that it's been so, although you've
managed to raise some hackles (including mine) there have been good
comments from all corners of this issue, and few true flames.
 
As I see it, this isn't an animal rights topic.  I'm sure most people here
believe every ferret has rights.  The right to live in a good environment,
to be treated well, and to be loved... None of us are debating this issue.
I don't feel this is the issue being discussed.
 
Yes, emotions are involved here.  Several people got upset with your
original, and subsequent posts.  There are differences in opinions, and
experiences, as you've stated.  What a majority of people seem to have a
problem with, is the way you seem to assume that all shelters stack up
ferrets in order to 'make money' and that all breeders breed so they CAN
'make money'.  We aren't the ones obsessed with money, in fact, I
personally (and most other breeders I know) are lucky to get enough money
to "break even" and it's rare that even that occurs.  Why do breeders
charge for their kits?  For the same reason shelters do I guess.  They have
to feed those kits, shelter them.  They have to give those kits the very
best care they can to ensure that they become the best, healthiest ferrets
they can be.  All of that costs money.  If you expect there to be healthy,
strong, well cared for kits, do you expect us to not only supply those
kits, but also to give them away?  If so, then we will breed at most for a
couple of years, because by the end of that time, we'll be in debt up to
our eyeballs.  Raising those strong, healthy, happy kits COSTS.
 
You say you aren't interested in stopping breeding.  If so, then why insist
on stopping breeders from being able to breed?  If we cannot care for those
kits properly, then the only kits being bred will be from places that are
breeding only for the money (e.g. Marshall Farms etc) and there will only
be kits raised from jills and hobs that are kept in small cages with no
ability for daily runs and little to no handling.  Personally, I'd rather
see the small breeders thrive, and keep kits out there that have been
handled properly, that the jills and hobs are cared for and treated as pets.
 
You also state the issue is the ferrets needs and the owners
responsibilities.  If this was the only issue the people here would be in
agreement.  We all want to see our ferrets healthy, happy, and thriving -
at least I hope so!  We all want to make sure we are doing the very best we
can for the ferrets.  You're right, free speech is wonderful, and sometimes
that does mean some "discussion", but the purpose of discussion is to make
some headway, all I see here is two sides pushing against each other and
getting nowhere.
 
I'm not disputing you have had experience with ferrets, what those
experiences are I'm sure even you couldn't fully go through.  I know I
can't go through every single experience I've had and relate everything
exactly as it was, but rather as I understood it to be.  You commented that
"Eventually in the translation [experience] turns into opinion" ... Now,
from what I read, you didn't seem (to me anyway, maybe I'm wrong in my
interpretation) to be conferring any experience, but you were offering
'opinion'.  No translation in that.
 
Many shelter owners and operators, and possibly even volunteers, were
offended by your posts because to them, and to myself, you seemed to be
accusing them of not only cruelty to the ferrets, but also of fraud!!  (I
get this from your original post in FML # 2516 where you state "if a
shelter can fill or overfill its facility, it shows a need.  Thus, the act
of "collecting" could be used as a way to get funds.")
 
In that same post, you also totally blew away the small breeders by stating
"if one is in the business of breeding ferrets I guess it's just considered
a temporary set back" when talking about the death of an animal in our
care.  Who gives you the right to say we do not care?!  What makes my
owning six ferrets (two of which are whole females, two whole males, and
two speyed females) any different from you owning ferrets?  What makes me
care less for my six ferrets than you would for the same number?
 
You're right, you don't need qualifications to care for ferrets, you don't
need qualifications to make a ferret happy, nor do you need qualifications
to make a post to the FML stating your opinions.  Some tact helps (of which
I am utilising none at this point and should possibly have apologised for
in advance) and some thought for the feelings for the others, also, and
maybe just a little common sense.  We are subscribed to the FML because we
care.  I personally did not relate my tale about Slinky's death to open
myself up to attack (which I perceived your original post as) but as a
warning to those who consider breeding as "just throwing a jill and hob
together and letting nature take it's course" Some people DO believe they
can make money from breeding, and I personally try to make people
understand that it is nigh on impossible to make money from breeding ANY
animal, let alone ferrets.  My litters (and all other breeders I have
spoken to) are not only given food, but supplements to ensure they will be
strong, the jill will be strong, and all will be healthy.  They're given
lots of attention and when they're old enough, they're given time to run.
 
It's commendable that you've taken in ferrets, cared for them when they
were sick, infirm, or handicapped.  It's wonderful that you've tried to
educate others about the joys of ferrets.  Not all people will do even that
amount.  (Note: pet stores rarely know much about ferrets, and therefore,
educating the pet store employees is a good idea too)  Meg's problem, and
mine, was that you seem to think that we don't care about our animals, and
that we're in "the business of breeding" solely for money.  Heavens, if I
break even, I'm not only happy, but downright astonished.  If you think ANY
amount of money can compensate for my having lost Slinky, you have not got
the slightest idea how I felt (and feel) about her.  I spent $200 for under
24 hours worth of vet visits for Slinky, and if she was still alive, I'd be
more than willing to pay that and more for every 24 hours since that time.
I am more than willing to go into debt for my animals, if necessary, and no
amount of money that I "collect" on sale of my kits will ever bring any of
that money, or Slinky, back to me.  Why do I breed?  Because I want there
to be better ferrets available out there for people like you!  Meg, I am
sure, breeds for the same, or similar, reasons.
 
I work fulltime in order to keep my ferrets fed, with full veterinary care,
and happy.  I work from home in order that I can stay with them during the
day.  If something goes wrong, then they remain within hands grasp so they
can get the attention they require.  No, I don't make a living off ferrets,
and I never will, that was never my intention, and it never will be.  Most
breeders will agree with me on this, and unless you have "experienced"
breeding, either having bred yourself or having spent time with breeders,
you cannot fully understand the COMMITMENT we put into the welfare of our
animals.
 
In taking in homeless animals and KEEPING them, you aren't a shelter (as
you commented earlier), but what others have been labelling a 'collector'.
 
You asked Meg "what exactly is your qualification that gives you the right
to play G*d?"  Please Betty, don't take this the wrong way, as I'm sure you
didn't mean Meg to take your comment the wrong way... Who gave YOU the
right to play God in having your animals neutered?!  It is 'natural' for
animals to want to breed, so in fact having them neutered is unnatural to
them.  Personally, I prefer to have animals neutered, because there ARE
risks with breeding and unless someone is fully willing to accept those
risks they should not breed.  It's obvious you weren't willing to take
those risks.  (There are risks with keeping females unneutered, and
therefore unless they ARE going to be bred, it's better for them to do so,
but NOT breeding is unnatural to them.  My jills try to stash me into their
nest box etc, like they would a recalcitrant kit who has wandered away.
This behaviour is not unknown in neutered females (and males) either.)
 
Not taking the risks involved in breeding is your decision, and you're
fully entitled to that decision.  However your merely asking Meg (and
breeders in general) who we are to play "G*d" means that you are trying to
enforce YOUR decision on us.  Therefore, YOU are the one playing God.  How
do we decide which ferret is bred?  I will only breed from ferrets that
have a good, strong, healthy background, from jills and hobs that are
gentle, healthy and not "nippy".  Do you construe this as wrong?
 
If everyone who bred had many years studying genetics, there would be no
domestic animals on this earth today.  No cattle to eat, no horses to work,
no cats and dogs and ferrets.  There would also be no humans for that
matter, maybe it isn't such a bad idea after all.
 
You propose that you love animals, and I'm sure you do.  If you do not, you
would not be risking flames in the manner that you have in sending in what
you believe is true and right.  Maybe a little forethought about what you
post is helpful, I know I'll probably regret ever writing this tomorrow,
but right now I feel this needs to be said.  You love ferrets?  Think about
what would happen if all the shelters closed down.  THINK about what would
happen if none of the smaller breeders charged for the care of their kits.
Suddenly, ferrets would cost $300 - $400 each or more, and when they were
dumped (as doubtless they will be, since the law of averages states this
will be so, unfortunately, with humans being the way they are) they will
simply be 'released' into the 'wild' to die within a matter of days because
larger 'farms' will not take back their kits (or will replace them and
euthanise the first one), and there would be no-one to take them.  Vets
wouldn't know much about them, since there wouldn't be any smaller breeders
or shelters who take in their animals on a regular basis and would ensure
that the vet population in the country LEARNED about their charges.
 
So, you have some ideas, that is good, we appreciate new ideas.  However,
ideas tend to be received with far more open minds on all sides if those
suggestions are not put forward in such a manner as to insult, hurt, and
degrade the people you're talking about.
 
This is *my* opinion.
 
Sam
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To see some awesome ferret cards, drop in on
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~fanmail/cards/ferretcard.htm
[Posted in FML issue 2523]