The statement
>Higher protein levels can usually be safely fed, if the protein is
>mainly from animal based matter. however, when plant matter makes up
>a significant amount of the protein available, then it is important
>to keep protein levels lower.

is NOT true for ferrets who are prone to cystine uroliths. For them
protein from ANY source needs to be reduced. Reducing the levels of 4
amino acids in a diet is very hard to accomplish otherwise. Sorry, but
that stuck out like a sore thumb for such individuals, though it is
important to note that they are by far not the majority of ferrets. I
don't think that you have had that problem, Danee, but since it can be
fatal I figured the warning makes sense to maybe save some ferrets in
time.

In fact, it has been the shift to more of the high protein animal
foods -- which are just fine and even good for most other ferrets --
which has made it apparent that the percentage of ferrets who get
cystine uroliths at over 35% protein intake is a worse rate than
previously thought. I first found that out from the excellent Dr.
Michelle Hawkins of U.S. Davis (Yes, the same ferret researcher who
is receiving genetic samples from Bob C, another FML member, to work
up the ferret genetics to help all) who noticed the proportions of such
stones changing as the higher protein diets became popular. Having been
twice burned with ferrets who get cystine uroliths I like to check the
pH of any ferret being taken to a higher protein diet because finding
that tendency early can save the ferret's life. (We got 7 extra years
for one and so far 6 extra years of life for another after their
cystine urolith problems first required emergency surgeries.) See my
post today on some urolith types to see pH ranges. (I'll copy that one
to Danee, too.)

Also, if kidney disease is present then the foods that have high
phosphorus levels have to be reduced no matter what type of food they
are. I gave a link to a place where phosphorus levels in foods can be
looked up yesterday but still have it handy so will give it again:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000121000000000000000.html
Reducing phosphorus while still giving a good protein source is one
reason that cooked eggs are very useful for ferrets with existing
kidney disease.

Danee also wrote:
>There are various foods and various ways ferrets can be fed. There is
>no one way that is correct. There are definitely some incorrect foods,
>but beyond avoiding those, there are any number of foods and way
>ferrets can receive the nutrition they need.

Exactly! That is my take, too. There are garbage foods with high
amounts of plant protein, there are "vegan carnivore foods" which are
a major red flag, there are cheap foods, there are foods with chunks
of dry plant matter and so on. Those all need to be avoided.

Different people will have different experiences, but if they are
getting good health, good life spans, and adjusting diets for those
who need that because of having special medical needs then a good job
is being done.

Danee and i feed differently from each other, with her using more of
the higher protein foods and Steve and I using fewer of those, but we
both get good results and I know a number of people here who can say
the same thing. I think that is the main lesson to take home, that
there are options and those options are perfectly acceptable even
though one person will not use a certain food for some reason while
another will but will avoid a food the first person likes for equally
good reasons. Just avoid the lousy foods and adjust diets for medical
conditions that present themselves in your ferrets as advised by your
treating veterinarian.

I think the discussion over the last few days about kidney function and
stones has presented an excellent learning opportunity for all of us
and learning up-front saves ferret lives both because problems can be
avoided and because when the problems occur they can be rapidly and
correctly treated. GREAT DISCUSSION, DANEE!

Sukie (not a vet)

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html
"All hail the procrastinators for they shall rule the world tomorrow."
(2010, Steve Crandall)
On change for its own sake: "You can go really fast if you just jump
off the cliff." (2010, Steve Crandall)

[Posted in FML 6841]