On Jan 12, 2005, at 1:52 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>Is Cystine found in say rabbit carcas at as high a rate as in American
>ferret kibble?
I do NOT know the rates of cystine, arginine, lysine, or ornithine in
rabbit, nor in the assorted foods (which will vary and many do NOT give
the rates.
Remember these things here:
1. In places where the feeding of diets high in the COLA group are the
norm and have been for many generations those animals who have this
vulnerability would have been likely to die out quite young meaning that
they may not have bred at all or may have had only one litter so the
rates would be lower just from non-survival.
2. That in many places people haven't bothered to do the pathology to
know what stone types were being seen.
3. That it may be cystine alone may be causing the loading, but it may
be another (or several) in the COLA grouping of amino acids which still
results in cystine stones because it precipitates out more easily.
>Generally speaking, are all the amino acids found in mice and rabbit
>the same as found in our kibble.
Well, since all of the vets I spoke with when Hilbert and Morney were ill
said that foods vary a lot I'd sure guess that is big "No.". Also, if
this is related to a genetic vulnerability which didn't show up earlier
because the amino acid loading wasn't happening then that aspect simply
would not matter for those individuals. There may be some foods which
are worse than others and two types (pea with duck, and pea with venison)
have been mentioned by other vets as POSSIBLE ones but if those foods are
involved the ASPECTS of them which cause them to be involved still have
to be teased out, and may be no different than other foods connected to
increased chances of getting cystine stones.
Cystine and the other members of the COLA grouping are amino acids so
expect them in protein sources in general.
Do realize, though, that not all ferrets can safely eat a high protein
diet, but exactly how many and why still needs to be investigated -- if
there is a genetic component affecting the kidneys of those individuals
as there is multiple other animals types (likley, though my impression
from what haas been said to me not found in all animal types getting
cystine stones), if those ferrets precipitate our cystine uroliths for
too much dietary cystine only or also for too much of other members of
the COLA group .
The rate of ferrets with this vulnerability in the U.S. is unknown,
partly because feeding a high protein diet is so new. How does it
compare to rates of insulinoma? NO IDEA. If I had to guess I guess it
may be lower, but that is only a guess and could be completely wrong.
I don't know if anyone knows the actual rate of insulinoma, actually.
I've heard of households (it SEEMS like often where people give cereal as
treats but that is an impression) with high rates, but we personally have
have below 20% of our's have insulinoma OR insulinoma imitators (lymphoma
or carcinoma in the pancreas) combined and that is with not using higher
than 35% protein level kibbles for almost all of that time and giving
some dried cranberries, banana, etc. As more people try higher protein
diets more will be known on that score, but if at the same time people
pass along the csytine urolith study info to their vets then at the same
time the puzzle can be teased apart and that will help everyone, but
especially the ferrets who wind up developing these stones.
So, when there are stones TEST: test the stones and test the urine,
AND MAKE SURE SAMPLES GET TO THIS STUDY:
Dr. Michelle Hawkins VMD DABVP (Avian) is coordinating this effort and
can be reached at:
2108 Tupper Hall, University of CA, Davis, CA 95616
1-530-752-1363 (phone)
[log in to unmask]
I never would have figured out that I would wind up learning so much
about the various types of uroliths; when I next have to see the
urologist (Parts fall sometimes in some of us over the years.) I think
I'll bring up ferret uroliths and startle him.
[Posted in FML issue 4756]
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