Margaret wrote:
>One of the common misconceptions, which was mine also, that if the person
>who is targeted is not named, then it cannot be actionable legally.  I was
>informed tonight that this is not true at all.  In fact, if comments made
>are identifiable as to whom they are directed to, they can in fact be
>legally actionable.
 
Just my opinion, but this is good information to now only know, but to
remember when posting.  However, 'knowing' that someone is being spoken of
because the person involved has spoken to you about the issue may not, IMO,
count.  For instance, I once posted that someone had written an email to
me insinuating that I couldn't know anything about situations in the US
because I live in New Zealand.  I not only mentioned no names, the above is
virtually all that I said.  The *only* way anyone could know who was being
spoken of is if that person contacted someone and *told* them that they
had sent me an email to the effect of the above.  IMO how 'identifiable'
a person is in a post can be a very grey area and is one that should, IMO,
be treated with caution.  Some people can take offense at the slightest
suggestion that they may be spoken about.  (I am not thinking of any person
in particular here - there are many situations which can be misread and
people take offense)
 
>So be careful what you say about folks.  Trying to get a reaction, or
>be nasty to someone without saying their names can still get you into
>trouble.  Why do I ask?  Well, I ask when I get questions about if certain
>comments aimed at me upset me.  I figure if folks I don't regularly talk
>to are worried about me being hurt by them, then I am certainly
>identifiable as the target.
 
If a person I didn't regularly talk to, or who I haven't spoken to about
the addressed issue asks... I would feel the same.  I believed in the
innate goodness of *all* FMLers until I became the target of some malicious
gossip last year.  I was more upset over there mere fact that people I
didn't know and hadn't spoken to were spreading lies about me.  I can
fully sympathise with *anyone* going through something similar.
 
>And please remember, what one posts is not necessarily how one is all
>the time.  I can get quite upset over certain issues (such as folks
>questioning my sanity) but that is anger and nothing more.
 
Can't say I'd like someone questioning my sanity either.  Well...
"seriously" that is, I've had people questioning my 'sanity' in a joking
manner in the past, which I usually have fun with.  After all, every ferret
owner is just a little "eccentric", right?  <G>
 
>The most well-adjusted appearances could be from the most unbalanced.
 
Agreed.  I have met some people who I've spoken to online (and the people
I'm thinking of are not ferret owners) who sounded like wonderful people.
Meeting them in person is a whole new experience altogether.  I've also
met some people who I'm not altogether 'sure' about online, and they turn
out to be the most gentle, friendly, awesome people you could ever hope
to meet.
 
>We can all get quite up in arms about our ferrets, and also about the
>others on this list, over certain issues.  Please make sure that your
>motives aren't personal, even when denying it.  Most folks can see
>through that and it will get you into trouble.
 
Agreed.  People here can be so determined to protect ferrets that sometimes
essential points may be missed, and assumptions can be made.  There are
some areas which are particular 'hot spots' for everyone, and others *can*
and often *do* deliberately press those hot spots just to get a reaction.
 
Sometimes it's better to get your point across by saying nothing, or very
little.  Sometimes, it's too much of a hot spot to leave it be.  I know
for myself, I attempt to think before responding.  It doesn't always work,
especially in times when I'm swamped with work, backlogged with email and
other things (not to mention work!  LOL) and I'm more 'testy'.
 
>As I have advocated in the past, and am taking a much more proactive
>role, complain to the moderator or the sponsor of the list.  If that
>doesn't help, then seek legal recourse.  You do not have to endure years
>of attack because someone else had some of sort of problem I know several
>folks who have endured this type of behavior from others on this list and
>others.
 
It's unfortunate, but there *are* some people on this list who seem to be
'stalkers' - I have no idea who they are, and personally would rather *not*
know.  There have been complaints expressed in the past, but many are
scared about stalkers breaking into their home and stealing their ferrets
or harming them or their ferrets.  I've heard of threats to call the Fish
and Game on ferret owners in California!
 
*Anyone* who is getting harrassed by someone - whether on this list or
elsewhere - should get proof of this harassment (via email and answering
machines to get proof from the phone) and contact the authorities.  You
do *not* have to put up with it!  I have some friends (I'm deliberately
picking on non-ferret people, for obvious reasons) who have dealt with
harassment for years who refused to talk to the authorities.  Someone found
their address and phone number and started threatening them, calling, and
sending "gifts".  Luckily, simply refusing to answer the phone directly,
and changing their online contacts was sufficient to finally put the person
off.
 
>Don't try and defend yourself.  It doesn't do any good.  Let the idiot
>who is badmouthing you do themselves in.  This is a hard lesson for me
>to learn and I am still doing it.  But that also doesn't mean that you
>cannot take steps and ask for some sort of official help from someone.
>Service provider, list moderator, etc.
 
ISPs and moderators are a start, however they *are* limited.  Naturally, if
you have a problem with someone, please make sure you tell *them* first, as
politely as possible.  They may not know what they're doing is annoying or
scaring you!  I know it sounds unlikely, but it has happened that someone
has just been overly friendly, and the other people have felt like they
were being 'stalked'.  For someone who is a minor annoyance, a complaint to
ISPs should (hopefully) be sufficient.  Real problem cases, where you're
feeling threatened or getting harassment which is affecting your life in
some way (including emotionally), contact your lawyer and the police.
 
>Realize that whatever someone is trying to say about you probably has
>some small attachment to something you have done (real or imagined) and
>that then you become a good scape goat for their troubles.  It probably
>has very little to do with you, as a person, especially when they don't
>know you to start with.  Or hardly know you.  It saddens me when someone
>wastes so much time on this type of thinking and it makes me mad at
>myself for wasting my own time trying to defend myself rather than taking
>formal steps.
 
This goes both ways.  One person who I was speaking with got upset at me
for a reason I still am unsure of, and has been upset with me ever since.
Whenever I've asked what the problem was, they seem to feel that I *know*
and that I'm acting stupid, for some reason.  Face it, I already know that
I'm not always smart when it comes to talking one-on-one.  I have royally
screwed up in the past by saying things in the wrong way - this happens
especially face to face or over the phone, but often happens via email (or
post) - especially when I'm tired and/or cranky.
 
No-one is perfect, and sometimes people just don't know what they're
saying, or how something they say may be misread or misinterpreted.  It's
like the "woman without her man is nothing" sentence.  Some can take it
as "Woman, without her man, is nothing" and others can take it as "Woman,
without her, man is nothing" - the same words, but two totally opposite
meanings.  Misinterpretation is incredibly easy with just the written word,
and no body language or vocal tones to help convey the meaning.  Sometimes
a full-scale "war" between people can even occur when one person *agrees*
to the other!!
 
>Along with this goes the caveat that not everyone on this list is
>what they appear to be, and most of us have no way of checking on the
>other members of the list to find out (except perhaps if you are in
>the same club or such with them.  I don't count casual meetings of
>limited time simply because you can't know someone that way.  I have
>met many folks for short periods and they really don't know me).
 
People can get a gist of what you're like online, and they can get a gist
of what you're like in real life - but without more than that fleeting
contact, a 'gist' is all you'll get.
 
>So don't assume someone is an expert because they say they are.  In
>fact, I strongly recommend that before you take any advice on anything,
>nutrition, care, medical advice, etc.  that you strongly question the
>source.  And then it may not work for you anyway.
 
This is something that can only be taken by sitting back and observing the
people who are talking, and double checking with people who are respected
by others (especially, but not confined to, the shelter owners/operators,
breeders, and people who have owned their ferrets for some time) Someone
who offers 'expert' advice which is contrary to everything else you see,
or to what common sense says, may need double checking.  Automatically
believing what you're told is as bad, IMO, as automatically discounting
something because of the people saying it.  There are people who are not
as well respected or known who give (IMO) absolutely wonderful advice, and
others who are obviously well respected who can give some (IMO) stupid
suggestions.  Most of the time the respected people will give good advice,
but they are *not* infallible.  No-one is infallible.
 
>Catherine is still amazed that Miss Pookers will go nuts for meat.  Any
>meat.  Including my finger if it gets in the way of a raisin.
 
My ferrets eat *anything* (except Kitten and Kovu who are a little more
picky) - my oldest, Gemn, will take a look at something she thinks *may*
be food and will eat it.  When walking her on the street, I used to have
to keep a sharp eye out for cigarette butts or else she's attempt to eat
them.  Silly twit.
 
Margaret had a lot of good points in her post, and I definitely feel that a
lot of what she said is worth being looked at again and thought over.  I'm
personally not thinking of anyone in particular in regard to this except
myself.  I've been snappish recently and as much at fault for flying off
the handle as anyone else here (although I always post mine to the FML <G>
Helps me keep things in perspective!).  Hopefully this will help people
think twice before posting the next inflammatory note to the FML.
 
Sam
 
[2-part post combined.  BIG]
[Posted in FML issue 3020]